That title is so horribly skewed, and for Mr. Pike to even try to make that argument is ludicrous.
By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan – an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed – that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.
A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine.
“The Department of Defense’s increased requirements for small- and medium-calibre ammunitions have largely been driven by increased weapons training requirements, dictated by the army’s transformation to a more self-sustaining and lethal force – which was accelerated after the attacks of 11 September, 2001 – and by the deployment of forces to conduct recent US military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq,” said the report by the General Accounting Office (GAO).
Estimating how many bullets US forces have expended for every insurgent killed is not a simple or precisely scientific matter. The former head of US forces in Iraq, General Tommy Franks, famously claimed that his forces “don’t do body counts”.
But senior officers have recently claimed “great successes” in Iraq, based on counting the bodies of insurgents killed. Maj-Gen Rick Lynch, the top US military spokesman in Iraq, said 1,534 insurgents had been seized or killed in a recent operation in the west of Baghdad. Other estimates from military officials suggest that at least 20,000 insurgents have been killed in President George Bush’s “war on terror”.
John Pike, director of the Washington military research group GlobalSecurity.org, said that, based on the GAO’s figures, US forces had expended around six billion bullets between 2002 and 2005. “How many evil-doers have we sent to their maker using bullets rather than bombs? I don’t know,” he said.
“If they don’t do body counts, how can I? But using these figures it works out at around 300,000 bullets per insurgent. Let’s round that down to 250,000 so that we are underestimating.”
Pointing out that officials say many of these bullets have been used for training purposes, he said: “What are you training for? To kill insurgents.”
Kathy Kelly, a spokeswoman for the peace group Voices in the Wilderness, said Mr Bush believed security for the American people could come only from the use of force. Truer security would be achieved if the US developed fairer relations with other countries and was not involved in the occupation of Iraq. The President, said Ms Kelly, should learn from Israel’s experience of “occupying the Palestinians” rather than buying its ammunition.
The GAO report notes that the three government-owned, contractor-operated plants that produce small- and medium-calibre ammunition were built in 1941.
Though millions of dollars have been spent on upgrading the facilities, they remain unable to meet current munitions needs in their current state. “The government-owned plant producing small-calibre ammunition cannot meet the increased requirements, even with modernisation efforts,” said the report.
“Also, commercial producers within the national technology and industrial base have not had the capacity to meet these requirements. As a result, the Department of Defense had to rely at least in part on foreign commercial producers to meet its small-calibre ammunition needs.”
A report in Manufacturing & Technology News said that the Pentagon eventually found two producers capable of meeting its requirements. One of these was the US firm Olin-Winchester.
The other was Israel Military Industries, an Israeli ammunition manufacturer linked to the Israeli government, which produces the bulk of weapons and ordnance for the Israeli Defence Force.
The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m (about £5.5m) more than it would have cost for it to produce the ammunition at its own facilities.
US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan – an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed – that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.
A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine.
“The Department of Defense’s increased requirements for small- and medium-calibre ammunitions have largely been driven by increased weapons training requirements, dictated by the army’s transformation to a more self-sustaining and lethal force – which was accelerated after the attacks of 11 September, 2001 – and by the deployment of forces to conduct recent US military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq,” said the report by the General Accounting Office (GAO).
Estimating how many bullets US forces have expended for every insurgent killed is not a simple or precisely scientific matter. The former head of US forces in Iraq, General Tommy Franks, famously claimed that his forces “don’t do body counts”.
But senior officers have recently claimed “great successes” in Iraq, based on counting the bodies of insurgents killed. Maj-Gen Rick Lynch, the top US military spokesman in Iraq, said 1,534 insurgents had been seized or killed in a recent operation in the west of Baghdad. Other estimates from military officials suggest that at least 20,000 insurgents have been killed in President George Bush’s “war on terror”.
John Pike, director of the Washington military research group GlobalSecurity.org, said that, based on the GAO’s figures, US forces had expended around six billion bullets between 2002 and 2005. “How many evil-doers have we sent to their maker using bullets rather than bombs? I don’t know,” he said.
“If they don’t do body counts, how can I? But using these figures it works out at around 300,000 bullets per insurgent. Let’s round that down to 250,000 so that we are underestimating.”
Pointing out that officials say many of these bullets have been used for training purposes, he said: “What are you training for? To kill insurgents.”
Kathy Kelly, a spokeswoman for the peace group Voices in the Wilderness, said Mr Bush believed security for the American people could come only from the use of force. Truer security would be achieved if the US developed fairer relations with other countries and was not involved in the occupation of Iraq. The President, said Ms Kelly, should learn from Israel’s experience of “occupying the Palestinians” rather than buying its ammunition.
The GAO report notes that the three government-owned, contractor-operated plants that produce small- and medium-calibre ammunition were built in 1941.
Though millions of dollars have been spent on upgrading the facilities, they remain unable to meet current munitions needs in their current state. “The government-owned plant producing small-calibre ammunition cannot meet the increased requirements, even with modernisation efforts,” said the report.
“Also, commercial producers within the national technology and industrial base have not had the capacity to meet these requirements. As a result, the Department of Defense had to rely at least in part on foreign commercial producers to meet its small-calibre ammunition needs.”
A report in Manufacturing & Technology News said that the Pentagon eventually found two producers capable of meeting its requirements. One of these was the US firm Olin-Winchester.
The other was Israel Military Industries, an Israeli ammunition manufacturer linked to the Israeli government, which produces the bulk of weapons and ordnance for the Israeli Defence Force.
The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m (about £5.5m) more than it would have cost for it to produce the ammunition at its own facilities.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...icle314944.ece
That title is so horribly skewed, and for Mr. Pike to even try to make that argument is ludicrous.
"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3
Jesus, troung, I remember that story being run at least a year ago. Old news. And stupid news. I hear we are continually having to buy new fuel for our vehicles in OIF as well, and that not all of that fuel comes from America.
-dale
Last edited by dalem; 16 Oct 05, at 23:49.
He SEARCHES for anti-american news on google. Anything that can be dished out. Anything that even vaguely bashes the war or Bush, he will post.Originally Posted by dalem
As long as one of those 250,000 bullets does its job....I'm happy. Otherwise its a completely useless fact.....given the fact that bulets don't always have to kill. Sometimes they are effective at injuring or pining an enemy down.
This is news these days?![]()
Give what's now considered "news" this story is moderately unimportant.Originally Posted by smilingassassin
"Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have."
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"
NEVER FORGET
Gosh, I sure hope it doesn't ever take 260K bullets to kill a single terrorist. If it ever gets to THAT point, we'll lose the war for sure.
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell
Not really anti American... just a triva fact at best... jeez a little bit of nervousness around here...
Not nervous at all, just sick of bullpoop dropped on heads every day. And it's not even GOOD bullpoop this time.Originally Posted by troung
-dale
Trivia eh? Oh I can't wait for the next trivial persuit eddition...I already know the answer to this one!!!
Hell I can play 1 day of paintball and waste way more balls pinning guys down, doesn't mean a damn thing though!!
Wrong, Troung is not anti-American, and I have yet to detect that from him. He posts articles of military interest, and doing so doesn't qualify one as anti-American. You have to actually take a stance or post articles that are clearly not legit.Originally Posted by giggs88
"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3
US Snipers....1.7rds per kill.
Troung is hardly anti-american.
He is a nasty democrat though.![]()
I think this story is seriously exagerated by its author I wonder if these same bullets are also used in training Iraqi forces etc. And besides when they are street to street house to house in close quaters what the hell else are they supposed to use a howitzer? So let me guess the critics now have to stoop to counting bullets I wonder how many bullets the critics would expend if their ass was pinned down and getting shot at from so many different places at once.![]()
Last edited by Dreadnought; 17 Oct 05, at 20:26.
The problem is the author really doesn't give any serious thought about the concept of bullets. You don't have to hit a living target to make good use of a bullet, sometimes it can pin the enemy down, spook him, disable his wheels, prevent him from taking up a strategically commanding possition ect.
Bullets are also cheap........
I don't know if he can help being a democrat. Almost makes you feel bad for him.Originally Posted by M21Sniper
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"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3
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