The British Catastrophe

**zraver** · 01 Jul 12,, 02:22

Pari

Neither existed: the Jews through UN decree financed by an international movement created theirs by supplanting the Palestinians; a concrete reality. They now seek to use arms largely given to them by a great power through the corruption of that great power's political process to deny the same to the Palestinians. Both myths, one made real through the destruction of the first for its own existence. The return of the Jews to their own state, or an invasion. Take your pick. I say its not a return but an invasion. They were granted lands by international decree, won some more through defensive war, I begrudge them not one inch of those. But the lands they took through aggression are as illegitimate as those taken by any other aggressor state..

S2 · 01 Jul 12,, 03:23

Neither existed: the Jews through UN decree financed by an international movement created theirs by supplanting the Palestinians; a concrete reality..."

Legitimately achieved and affirmed by force of arms (and what a collection of weapons they were!) in 1948.

"...They now seek to use arms largely given to them by a great power through the corruption of that great power's political process to deny the same to the Palestinians..."

Hardly necessary are the F-16s, F-15s and Apaches to do so. Piper Cubs with rockets would easily suffice. Your notion of "corruption" is my notion of advise and consent. The influence achieved stems from the ballot box. Naturally as a consistent loser in that regard it is resented and, therefore, misrepresented by you.

"...Both myths, one made real through the destruction of the first for its own existence. The return of the Jews to their own state, or an invasion. Take your pick. I say its not a return but an invasion. They were granted lands by international decree, won some more through defensive war, I begrudge them not one inch of those..."

So you acknowledge the boundaries established after 1973?

"...But the lands they took through aggression are as illegitimate as those taken by any other aggressor state."

It shall remain impossible for you to make a case of an aggressor state when conflict continues by the unpreparedness of those defeated to recognize lands gained by "defensive war". Your case, as presented above, is simply the other side of Ben's coin-and at least as pathetic.

**zraver** · 01 Jul 12,, 04:10

Originally Posted by S2

Hardly necessary are the F-16s, F-15s and Apaches to do so. Piper Cubs with rockets would easily suffice.

it would make the fight more fair anyway, because Israel does use F-16's and Apaches against the Palestinians.

Your notion of "corruption" is my notion of advise and consent. The influence acheived stems from the ballot box. Naturally as a consistent loser in that regard it is resented and, therefore, misrepresented by you.

AIPAC spent almost 88 million during the 2008 election cycle- a group funded with foreign money is making campaign contributions and that is corruption. A former director of the CIA claimed AIPAC should have registered as a foreign group, they've been accused of spying, one director had to quit after he was recorded bragging how much ($14 billion) AIPAC got for Israel in one year. The influence it gains is through the money it is willing to spend to let those who are willing to do business with them win at the ballot box.

So you acknowledge the boundaries established after 1973?

You mean Camp David and the treaty with Jordan? Or do you mean 67, in which case where Israel was attacked- the land gained is legit but only if taken from the territory of the aggressor. Not territory the aggressor was already illegally occupying. .

It shall remain impossible for you to make a case of an aggressor state when conflict continues by the unpreparedness of those defeated to recognize lands gained by "defensive war". Your case, as presented above, is simply the other side of Ben's coin-and at least as pathetic.

The West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem were not legally gained in defensive war, the lands taken for settlements, roads, walls and checkpoints were not gained through defensive war. Nor are indigenous people required to accept second and third class status under occupiers per the laws of armed conflict and several legal and political rulings. Israel refuses to follow the LOAC and engages in extra-judicial killings, targeting democratically elected political figures, mass and collective punishment, cultural genocide, seizure of land, wealth and other property...

I wish America would simply walk away, doing business with Israel today is like doing business with tin pots in South America or Islamic radicals in the 80's. Israel has even begun passing laws to muzzle its own citizens who dare to stand up and say this is WRONG. They don't respect our values anymore than the Palestinians do, and in some ways a great deal less.

**Parihaka** · 01 Jul 12,, 04:48

Originally Posted by zraver

Pari

Neither existed: the Jews through UN decree financed by an international movement created theirs by supplanting the Palestinians; a concrete reality. They now seek to use arms largely given to them by a great power through the corruption of that great power's political process to deny the same to the Palestinians. Both myths, one made real through the destruction of the first for its own existence. The return of the Jews to their own state, or an invasion. Take your pick. I say its not a return but an invasion. They were granted lands by international decree, won some more through defensive war, I begrudge them not one inch of those. But the lands they took through aggression are as illegitimate as those taken by any other aggressor state..

I'm already well aware that your choice for Judaism is the ghetto. Fortunately, short of sufficient force projection given to their current attackers, that decision for the first time in 2000 years is no-ones but the Jews.

**Chunder** · 01 Jul 12,, 04:57

Originally Posted by Mihais

Man ,think in perspective.You're allied with an American diplomat of Asian extraction.All the things that matter in your hood.All this for a bit of lip service about some chaps in the ME

Yes,I know,am an a$$hole.Think of something I don't know about myself

Ahh, you mean a lacky! No I am fine with that! Referenced as a lacky in a thread titled the 'British Catastrophe' is a high honour sir.

The extent of my thoughts of you are after those pictures of your farm I just wonder why you sit on the internet whilst in such a beautiful area.

My mind just goes blank with such happy thoughts rendering me unable to think further.

**zraver** · 01 Jul 12,, 05:19

Originally Posted by Parihaka

I'm already well aware that your choice for Judaism is the ghetto.

Really, I just said I begrudge them not one inch of what is legally theirs so you accuse me of antisemitism? So are Jews in Israel who stand up and say what the Israeli government is doing is wrong and illegal antisemitic? or does the exact same non-religious based standpoint somehow exempt them from the vile term you've labeled me with?

I guess my defenses of Israel's legal actions and often repeated admiration for Judaism (which is not Israel) don't matter why your only argument is a retreat to ad hominem attacks.

Fortunately, short of sufficient force projection given to their current attackers, that decision for the first time in 2000 years is no-ones but the Jews.

Your off by about a 1300 years. More importantly, who are the Israelis forcing to live in Ghettos... Why was it OK for the Irgun to blow up British troops, for Haganah, Irgun and Stein gang to shoot and bomb Arabs shopping in markets, to plan, announce and execute a plan to secure an area as free from non-Jewish influence as possible for the new Jewish state, but its not OK for the Palestinians to want their future state not be chopped up like a jigsaw puzzle with settlements, roads, check points, walls and restricted areas?

That beign said, the biggest threat to Israel is Israel's right wing yahoos who are slowly, almost deliberately turning the entire world against Israel. In the none to distant future the US and Europe are going to walk away, no longer able to stomach the moral betrayal that supporting an Israel dominated by the right wing zealots demands.

How about water sharing, why does a Jewish child deserve more water than a Palestinian child, or are Palestinians born terrorist, or in someway guilty of the same sort of blood libel BS that got so many innocent Jews killed by Christians?

**Parihaka** · 01 Jul 12,, 05:37

Originally Posted by zraver

Really, I just said I begrudge them not one inch of what is legally theirs so you accuse me of antisemitism?

I accused you of nothing of the sort. Playing the victim card?

Originally Posted by zraver

So are Jews in Israel who stand up and say what the Israeli government is doing is wrong and illegal antisemitic? or does the exact same non-religious based standpoint somehow exempt them from the vile term you've labeled me with?

A strawman built upon a false premis.

Originally Posted by zraver

I guess my defenses of Israel's legal actions and often repeated admiration for Judaism (which is not Israel) don't matter why your only argument is a retreat to ad hominem attacks.

"Oh boo hoo hoo poor me poor me".

Sorry Z, not playing your victim game. You have repeatedly offered your opinion that the only premis you'd allow Israel's continued existence given the opportunity would be withdrawal to indefensible borders, an exact and precise return to ghetto.

The rest of your statements are as usual meaningless spam, purely to flame and divert the course of the discussion so you can once again reiterate for page after page the evils of Israel. As the wise Brigadier oft said, "I do not need to attend every argument I'm invited to"

**Monash** · 01 Jul 12,, 07:40

Going back to the original topic - I must have met hundreds of British citizens in my time, both expats over here in Aus (seems like there are more every day) and in the UK. I have also travelled extensively in Britian and by chance was actually there in early July one year. Not a peep about independence day or the revolutionary war, apart perhaps from a couple of wry jokes at their own expence. Don't know where the "author" of that article got his facts (for want of a better term) from but here it reads more like the journalistic equivalent of a brain fart than a factual commentary on the English perception of the US and the state of the relationship between both countries. As for the rest of the Israel/Palestine rant ... as I have stated before, it's not my problem, best of luck soughting it all out etc etc, now go away and let the adults talk in peace.

S2 · 01 Jul 12,, 08:14

"...it would make the fight more fair anyway, because Israel does use F-16's and Apaches against the Palestinians..."

Fair? Combat? You jest, no? Thank God for those F-16s and precision munitions. Can you imagine targeting a Palestinian rocket site next to a hospital with a Piper Cub? I mean...it COULD be done-and certainly no worse than the intent pursued by the Palestinians.

"AIPAC spent almost 88 million during the 2008 election cycle- a group funded with foreign money is making campaign contributions and that is corruption..."

Odd as their annual operating budget is less. AIPAC makes no direct campaign contributions but, instead, aligns candidates with individuals and groups willing to do so. That's planning to objective which differs from the methodologies employed by other PACs only in the effective execution.

"...A former director of the CIA claimed AIPAC should have registered as a foreign group..."

Who would that be? Marchetti was no former director. Neither was William Fulbright.

"...they've been accused of spying..."

Your innuendo doesn't constitute admissable evidence. The charges were dropped.

"...one director had to quit after he was recorded bragging how much ($14 billion) AIPAC got for Israel in one year..."

Bad form to openly express your excellence at what PACs do. CAIR can only wish to be so skilled.

"...The influence it gains is through the money it is willing to spend to let those who are willing to do business with them win at the ballot box."

"...Let..."? Elections are no-holds-barred bare-fisted brawls. However, unless you can make a sane case that U.S. Electoral officials are bought and paid for by Israeli money funneled through AIPAC you're offering nothing (again) that's of substantive value.

In sum-nonsense. This is a powerful lobby group that elicits support from left and right wing American Jews along with numerous Christian-American PACs and carefully aligns those potential contributors with candidates on both sides of the aisle. It is as scrutinized as any PAC in America. Because it is so, you can be assured they walk a straight and narrow path, albeit ruthless, in pursuit of their objective.

"You mean Camp David and the treaty with Jordan...?"

I mean the Yom Kippur war AND the 1967 war.

"...Or do you mean 67, in which case where Israel was attacked- the land gained is legit but only if taken from the territory of the aggressor."

So...Gaza, the Sinai, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem captured in battle. SEIZED from aggressor forces. Defended from the same aggressor forces in 1973. End of argument. The Palestinians are an enemy people opposed to the existence of Israel. HAMAS purports to speak for all in Gaza and insist on such. History suggests the same for the rest. Palestinians made their bed in 1948 and chose to be the barking dog of the accumulated states of araby. Their lot, to date (and however miserable) is better than they've deserved-by far.

"...I wish America would simply walk away, doing business with Israel today is like doing business with tin pots in South America or Islamic radicals in the 80's. Israel has even begun passing laws to muzzle its own citizens who dare to stand up and say this is WRONG. They don't respect our values anymore than the Palestinians do, and in some ways a great deal less."

Then South American tin pots are a way neigh more holy than a palestinian leadership that can count its kleptocratic heads of state (

) on two fingers. Don't lump your questionable values with mine. The Israeli government certainly doesn't respect YOUR values. Doing so would be tantamount to national suicide. I see a vibrant democratic society that's conducted it's internal affairs amidst a near-constant state of war with a degree of grace and humility that shames its detractors.

Thanks.

**Bigfella** · 01 Jul 12,, 10:13

Originally Posted by JAD_333

That's a valid view, but doesn't quite address what I meant. To be more succinct, Ben is Israeli; we're not. We should take that into account--not only intellectually, but with feeling, which we can all do if we dwell on our own patriotism. So, though we might disagree with him and other Israelis on the facts, we don't have to do so in a disrespectful manner or, if they show disrespect to us, pay them back in kind. Not pointing any fingers...

I got your point JAD and I understand that this is a much more emotional issue for BR than for the rest of us. If the only issue here was whether or not we disagreed respectfully I would have no issue. The problem is that disagreement in and of itself is treated disrespectfully. I see no value in responding in kind, it just drags the board down further. To me the issue isn't 'facts', but propaganda. This thread, for instance, has no relationship to 'facts'. Neither did the climber thread. The 'post a Palestinian atrocity & then scream about how these people don't deserve a country' threads aren't about facts either. They don't invite 'respectful disagreement' because their premise disrepsects our intelligence. Even people who are sympathetic to his position can see how counter productive they are.

I'm starting to suspect that the only appropriate response is to spam the board with stuff from 'J Street' & 'Peace Now'. Might be nice to remind people that the range of Jewish & Israeli opinion is actually quite broad.

**Bigfella** · 01 Jul 12,, 10:24

Originally Posted by Double Edge

What did you make of Ben's efforts in the Mavi Marmara thread ?

Was that propaganda as well.

Not so much. It presented a particular pespective, but it contained a lot of information on a confused situation where there was a lot of conflicting reporting from all sides. If the quality of information he provided was consistently up to that standard I would have fewer issues with what he posts. My issue isn't that we disagree, but that 1) much of what he posts on the issue is repetitive & fundamentally disrespectful of our intelligence; 2) he feels the need to casually & viciously abuse people (including me) for no other reason than that we disagree with him.

**Doktor** · 01 Jul 12,, 12:52

**zraver** · 01 Jul 12,, 14:03

Originally Posted by Parihaka

I accused you of nothing of the sort. Playing the victim card?

You said my choice for Judaism was the ghetto so yes you did.

You have repeatedly offered your opinion that the only premis you'd allow Israel's continued existence given the opportunity would be withdrawal to indefensible borders, an exact and precise return to ghetto.

+ S2's nearly identical statement

Israel has pulled out of Gaza and the West Bank and East Jerusalem's only international border is with Jordan a state Israel is at peace with and a state that is one of the least armed states in the region.... so how is it indefensible? How exactly do settlements of religious nutballs make the situation more conducive to peace?

The Golan Heights were taken from an aggressor, Syria is out... Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem were already occupied all 67 did was swap one occupier for another.

**~~grace~~** · 23 Jul 12,, 21:49

My view is that Israel is completely in the wrong and needs to make immediate amends. Whatever the pathetic excuse, Israel's policy of settlement building in the west bank, since 1967, is an act of war against a non-state state. Every action by actors in the region, against Israel, is perfectly legitimate. Israel needs to withdraw from Palestinian lands, to the 1967 "indefensible" borders and give all settlements to the Palestinians for homeless shelters and pray that the muslim brothers and sisters forgive you.

The way to do that is to sign a two state solution, with the northern border of gaza extended to the 67 borders, such that there is no border between Egypt and Israel, and Palestine gets to tariff every commercial transaction passing through its borders.

**TopHatter** · 23 Jul 12,, 22:31

Hi Grace,
How about if you head over to the Introduction Thread and tell us a little something about yourself?

Thread: The British Catastrophe

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Rate This Thread

Display

Zraver Reply

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

Similar Threads

Solyndra's bankruptcy: 'Political catastrophe' for Obama?

British MoD considering F-35C for CVF

Who are the british descendents from

An unholy alliance threatening catastrophe

I am not a British Asian any more!!!

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions