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Thread: The siege of Mecca

  1. #61
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    Actually, about the same people thing, there is no doubt that there is much in common if we look at the history of the two people.

    But over the last 60 years, we have developed so many differences as well. As individuals we may get along very well but the difference in sensibilities has increased to an extent as to be almost unbridgeable.

    Here is an Indian perspective:

    The same people? Surely not
    Vir Sanghvi, Hindustan Times
    Email Author
    March 07, 2009

    Few things annoy me as much as the claim often advanced by well-meaning but woolly- headed (and usually Punjabi) liberals to the effect that when it comes to India and Pakistan, "We’re all the same people, yaar." This may have been true once upon a time. Before 1947, Pakistan was part of undivided India and you could claim that Punjabis from West Punjab (what is now Pakistan) were as Indian as, say, Tamils from Madras.

    But time has a way of moving on. And while the gap between our Punjabis (from east Punjab which is now the only Punjab left in India) and our Tamils may actually have narrowed, thanks to improved communications, shared popular culture and greater physical mobility, the gap between Indians and Pakistanis has now widened to the extent that we are no longer the same people in any significant sense.

    This was brought home to me most clearly by two major events over the last few weeks.

    The first of these was the attack on the Sri Lankan cricket team on the streets of Lahore. In their defence, Pakistanis said that they were powerless to act against the terrorists because religious fanaticism was growing. Each day more misguided youngsters joined jihadi outfits and the law and order situation worsened.

    Further, they added, things had got so bad that in the tribal areas the government of Pakistan had agreed to suspend the rule of law under pressure from the Taliban and had conceded that sharia law would reign instead. Interestingly, while most civilised liberals should have been appalled by this surrender to the forces of extremism, many Pakistanis defended this concession.

    Imran Khan (Keble College, Oxford, 1973-76) even declared that sharia law would be better because justice would be dispensed more swiftly! (I know this is politically incorrect but the Loin of the Punjab’s defence of sharia law reminded me of the famous Private Eye cover when his marriage to Jemima Goldsmith was announced. The Eye carried a picture of Khan speaking to Jemima’s father. “Can I have your daughter’s hand?” Imran was supposedly asking James Goldsmith. “Why? Has she been caught shoplifting?” Goldsmith replied. So much for sharia law.)

    The second contrasting event was one that took place in Los Angeles but which was perhaps celebrated more in India than in any other country in the world. Three Indians won Oscars: A.R. Rahman, Resul Pookutty and Gulzar.

    Their victory set off a frenzy of rejoicing. We were proud of our countrymen. We were pleased that India’s entertainment industry and its veterans had been recognised at an international platform. And all three men became even bigger heroes than they already were.

    But here’s the thing: Not one of them is a Hindu.

    Can you imagine such a thing happening in Pakistan? Can you even conceive of a situation where the whole country would celebrate the victory of three members of two religious minorities? For that matter, can you even imagine a situation where people from religious minorities would have got to the top of their fields and were, therefore, in the running for international awards?

    On the one hand, you have Pakistan imposing sharia law, doing deals with the Taliban, teaching hatred in madrasas, declaring jihad on the world and trying to kill innocent Sri Lankan cricketers. On the other, you have the triumph of Indian secularism.

    The same people?

    Surely not.


    We are defined by our nationality. They choose to define themselves by their religion.

    But it gets even more complicated. As you probably know, Rahman was born Dilip Kumar. He converted to Islam when he was 21. His religious preferences made no difference to his prospects. Even now, his music cuts across all religious boundaries. He’s as much at home with Sufi music as he is with bhajans. Nor does he have any problem with saying ‘Vande Mataram’.

    Now, think of a similar situation in Pakistan. Can you conceive of a Pakistani composer who converted to Hinduism at the age of 21 and still went on to become a national hero? Under sharia law, they’d probably have to execute him.

    Resul Pookutty’s is an even more interesting case. Until you realise that Malayalis tend to put an ‘e’ where the rest of us would put an ‘a,’ (Ravi becomes Revi and sometimes the Gulf becomes the Gelf), you cannot work out that his name derives from Rasool, a fairly obviously Islamic name.

    But here’s the point: even when you point out to people that Pookutty is in fact a Muslim, they don’t really care. It makes no difference to them. He’s an authentic Indian hero, his religion is irrelevant.

    Can you imagine Pakistan being indifferent to a man’s religion? Can you believe that Pakistanis would not know that one of their Oscar winners came from a religious minority? And would any Pakistani have dared bridge the religious divide in the manner Resul did by referring to the primeval power of Om in his acceptance speech?

    The same people?

    Surely not.

    Most interesting of all is the case of Gulzar who many Indians believe is a Muslim. He is not. He is a Sikh. And his real name is Sampooran Singh Kalra.

    So why does he have a Muslim name?

    It’s a good story and he told it on my TV show some years ago. He was born in West Pakistan and came over the border during the bloody days of Partition. He had seen so much hatred and religious violence on both sides, he said, that he was determined never to lose himself to that kind of blind religious prejudice and fanaticism.

    Rather than blame Muslims for the violence inflicted on his community — after all, Hindus and Sikhs behaved with equal ferocity — he adopted a Muslim pen name to remind himself that his identity was beyond religion. He still writes in Urdu and considers it irrelevant whether a person is a Sikh, a Muslim or a Hindu.

    Let’s forget about political correctness and come clean: can you see such a thing happening in Pakistan? Can you actually conceive of a famous Pakistani Muslim who adopts a Hindu or Sikh name out of choice to demonstrate the irrelevance of religion?

    My point, exactly.

    What all those misguided liberals who keep blathering on about us being the same people forget is that in the 60-odd years since Independence, our two nations have traversed very different paths.

    Pakistan was founded on the basis of Islam. It still defines itself in terms of Islam. And over the next decade as it destroys itself, it will be because of Islamic extremism.

    India was founded on the basis that religion had no role in determining citizenship or nationhood. An Indian can belong to any religion in the world and face no discrimination in his rights as a citizen.

    It is nobody’s case that India is a perfect society or that Muslims face no discrimination. But only a fool would deny that in the last six decades, we have travelled a long way towards religious equality. In the early days of independent India, a Yusuf Khan had to call himself Dilip Kumar for fear of attracting religious prejudice.

    In today’s India, a Dilip Kumar can change his name to A.R. Rahman and nobody really gives a damn either way.

    So think back to the events of the last few weeks. To the murderous attack on innocent Sri Lankan cricketers by jihadi fanatics in a society that is being buried by Islamic extremism. And to the triumphs of Indian secularism.

    Same people?

    Don’t make me laugh.
    The same people? Surely not - Hindustan Times
    There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..

  2. #62
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    Blademaster Reply

    "I do not agree with the assertion of zraver and S2 that there is only the difference of religion between a Pakistani and an Indian."

    And I asserted such where, exactly?

    "There is no tolerance for diversity or difference of ideas or opinions in Pakistan."

    "no tolerance"? You understand, of course, that this is an absolutist idea which only requires a single dissenting voice to be invalidated? IHM alone does so. His continuing existence is proof. That he provided earlier a list of prominent dissenting voices neither dead nor jailed suggests that he isn't alone.

    "Indian culture allow for diversity and does not employ violence as a policy to further its goals and aims"

    Your culture has experienced too many flash-points of conflict internally since your nation was founded to utter this comment casually. To suggest you've never experienced racial, ethnic nor religious internal strife would be silly. To admit as much would invalidate the above comment.

    The Indian government retains both a standing army and an extensive internal security apparatus that are instruments of state policy that's exercised within and without your nat'l borders. Those instruments utilize violence as a component of their operating systems and have been, are and will be utilized as your government periodically requires.

    Careful with your rhetoric, please, lest you be trapped by such.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!"
    Jeff Lebowski

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinod2070 View Post
    Why would Pakistan have a war with China? Over Xingxiang? Fat chance I think

    What is the hypothetical scenario that will lead to this? That too without India being involved?
    OoE first made this observation based on Chinese strategic outlook, which for example led them to collaborate with the Viets against the US... but promptly turned to mutual war once Americans made peace with Vietnam and got out. If a GoP made peace with India, the Chinese would intervene on behalf of a hawkish-party in Pakistan; if that failed it may turn to war to punish Pakistan for their betrayal.. Also one must consider that Pakistan would probably be making this peace with external (read US) backing - so it would be logical for China to fear encirclement and lash out against Pakistan to warn off the US against further interference in its backyard (shades of its strategy against USSR). Do you begin to see the big picture? India is the wildcard

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinod2070 View Post
    Why would Pakistan have a war with China? Over Xingxiang? Fat chance I think

    What is the hypothetical scenario that will lead to this? That too without India being involved?
    You don't even have to look very hard to see the foundations of a Sino-Pak War. Pakistan helped created and supported the Taliban. The Taliban spread their violence into China ... and Russia and Iran. While Pakistan thus far has refused to support the Uyghar rebels, the Taliban had no such qualms.

    Take away India and you will see Pakistan asserting its traditional leadership rights ... and that means extending protection over its clients and while not outright support, you will see the same kind of support Pakistan is currently giving Indian terror groups. The Uyghars will be able to establish humanitarian offices in Pakistan and outright bases in Afghanistan.

    Really, India is the only glue between the two countries and that's only because Pakistan is blinded by it.
    Chimo

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by S-2 View Post
    "I do not agree with the assertion of zraver and S2 that there is only the difference of religion between a Pakistani and an Indian."

    And I asserted such where, exactly?

    "There is no tolerance for diversity or difference of ideas or opinions in Pakistan."

    "no tolerance"? You understand, of course, that this is an absolutist idea which only requires a single dissenting voice to be invalidated? IHM alone does so. His continuing existence is proof. That he provided earlier a list of prominent dissenting voices neither dead nor jailed suggests that he isn't alone.

    "Indian culture allow for diversity and does not employ violence as a policy to further its goals and aims"

    Your culture has experienced too many flash-points of conflict internally since your nation was founded to utter this comment casually. To suggest you've never experienced racial, ethnic nor religious internal strife would be silly. To admit as much would invalidate the above comment.

    The Indian government retains both a standing army and an extensive internal security apparatus that are instruments of state policy that's exercised within and without your nat'l borders. Those instruments utilize violence as a component of their operating systems and have been, are and will be utilized as your government periodically requires.

    Careful with your rhetoric, please, lest you be trapped by such.

    And it shows your breadth of ignorance when it comes to Indian affairs and your reliance on shallow sloppy western media coverage of Indian events.

    Those events you mentioned were instigated by the local people, not the state or the government and were condemned as a whole. The state went after those responsible and brought justice except in the case of the Sikhs killings in the aftermath of Gandhi's assassination.

    As for the internal security forces, they are law enforcement officers just like you have Sheriffs and state police only that in India we do not have sheriffs or state police, just the national police or security forces. Again your ignorance is showing.

    I have experienced racial ethnic strife and have not forgotten about it. But you know what? So did America with its LA riots and riots in Cleveland and Civil Rights protest. What separates America and India from Pakistan is that we have a large respect for law and order and justice. Pakistan doesn't.

    You have made some comments about India that are totally false and out of context. I have been staying away from the forum prior. But now expect that to change. I will challenge you on every assertion you have made about India.

  6. #66
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    India and Pakistan have the LoC in common: Hi from Mumbaikar

  7. #67
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    Blademaster Reply

    "Those events you mentioned were instigated by the local people..."

    As before when you suggested that I'd indicated that only differences of religion lie between India and Pakistan, you again make an unfounded assertion. What event did I specifically mention? Still you are correct that strife is the product of conflict between peoples. Same culture? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Please try being more careful with your allegations.

    Still, did you not say this-

    "Indian culture allow for diversity and does not employ violence..."?

    From what does culture derive if not its people?

    Further, how am I wrong to assert that your armed forces and security apparatus are prepared to use violence as a matter of state policy whether internal or external? It's clear that violence is an integral element of their portfolio.

    "But you know what? So did America with its LA riots and riots in Cleveland and Civil Rights protest."

    My recollection of racial riots in America reaches far, far deeper than L.A. in the 80s. Still, America isn't the issue here and is, therefore, generally irrelevant to the larger discussion.

    This comment by you, however, may be more germane-

    "What separates America and India from Pakistan is that we have a large respect for law and order and justice. Pakistan doesn't."

    Again you fall on an absolute statement. Singular too. There's much that separates all of us from one another.

    "...it shows your breadth of ignorance when it comes to Indian affairs..."

    Perhaps. I profess no expertise but see no essential flaw here to my modest points. You've added no enlightening clarification. Some invective but little clarification.

    "...and your reliance on shallow sloppy western media coverage of Indian events."

    Control your temper. I also rely upon shallow sloppy Indian media coverage where convenient. Do you see a link anywhere? I ask because I assiduously link my sources where used. If not, please save your red herring diatribe for another time and place.

    "I have been staying away from the forum prior."

    I hadn't noticed.

    "But now expect that to change."

    Welcome back.

    "I will challenge you on every assertion you have made about India."

    Like so far? In any case, I spend little time concerned with India. My interests lie further west. Still, here's hoping your attention to detail and precision improve.
    Last edited by S2; 31 Aug 10, at 22:12.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!"
    Jeff Lebowski

  8. #68
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    Holier than thou-- I'm the BEST and You're Super Idiot-- attitude among people of this region is another source of rift. We should NOT remain in flat state of denial; rather should muster up a moral courage to denounce the evils amongst us that devour our souls. Before I point my finger to my Indian Friends, I better put first my own home in order. I know we as a nation glosses over the insidious evils among us and conveniently put blames on CIA, MOSSAD, RAW. This is really a defeatist mentality. We better get rid of our jingoistic and "super patriotic" values being promoted by Bhal Thakray in India and Zaid Hamid in Pakistan. These rabble-rouser demagogues like Zaid Hamid of Pakistan and Bhal Takray of India are also promoting animosity and hatred rather than love and peace. Such evils should be countered. Glad to see that in Pakistan, Zaid Hamid, ones an emerging media "celebrity", now his popularity is declining exponentially. The bottom line, stable and prosperous Pakistan will surely yield much dividends for the region; and so does India. We need to identify the nefarious hands amongst us that act as an impediment to our peaceful coexistence and finally get away with them. We need to change the entrenched status quo.
    Please,
    PEACE PEACE PEACE
    Last edited by IHM; 31 Aug 10, at 23:03. Reason: Syntax error corrected
    Peace, Peace, Peace

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus View Post
    OoE first made this observation based on Chinese strategic outlook, which for example led them to collaborate with the Viets against the US... but promptly turned to mutual war once Americans made peace with Vietnam and got out. If a GoP made peace with India, the Chinese would intervene on behalf of a hawkish-party in Pakistan; if that failed it may turn to war to punish Pakistan for their betrayal.. Also one must consider that Pakistan would probably be making this peace with external (read US) backing - so it would be logical for China to fear encirclement and lash out against Pakistan to warn off the US against further interference in its backyard (shades of its strategy against USSR). Do you begin to see the big picture? India is the wildcard
    That's interesting. I think it is a little far fetched. Not all of China's neighbors are exactly too friendly and they have not been punished for betrayal.

    I always thought that Tibet and Xingxiang are buffer zones for China. It won't start a war in the West (that too with a nuclear weapon country) just to lash out. Assuming Pakistan has the backing of USA, it won't be a wise move.



    Without India, I understand Pakistan will be just another country for China. It may even need to be kept on a tight leash but I think Pakistan won't dare risk a confrontation with China even if it is no longer hostile to India.
    There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    You don't even have to look very hard to see the foundations of a Sino-Pak War. Pakistan helped created and supported the Taliban. The Taliban spread their violence into China ... and Russia and Iran. While Pakistan thus far has refused to support the Uyghar rebels, the Taliban had no such qualms.

    Take away India and you will see Pakistan asserting its traditional leadership rights ... and that means extending protection over its clients and while not outright support, you will see the same kind of support Pakistan is currently giving Indian terror groups. The Uyghars will be able to establish humanitarian offices in Pakistan and outright bases in Afghanistan.

    Really, India is the only glue between the two countries and that's only because Pakistan is blinded by it.
    Sir, I agree Pakistan is blinded by hatred of India and that makes it possible for it to take suicidal steps. With China it won't have the same blind hatred and therefor will not make the same kind of stupid mistakes that will mean nothing but destruction.

    I know their general can be overly ambitious bt not that stupid to earn the ire of China. With India it is a different story. Their hatred and warped sense of history makes them overreach themselves.
    There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..

  11. #71
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    You mean like Soviet Afghanistan? The Paks were stupid enough to take on two superior military powers, India and the USSR, why would Pakistan decline the challenge to her leadership by China?
    Chimo

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    @IHM,
    You have mentioned few names (New Generation) of Pakistanis and one of them is Mr. Najam Sethi. I am following videos uploaded on you tube of his program on Dunya TV. The way this gentleman is conducting debates and answering to calls from different viewers withing Pakistan and overseas, i have no doubt in my mind to trust whatever you are saying about the twinkles(you being modest) of change seen in many Pakistanis or main stream media of Pakistan.
    Sometimes it gives me shiver of worry for his well being when he bluntly speaks against Pakistan's India centric policies. On few occasions i have seen him sugar coating bitter facts specially when he is interviewing Politicians or Army people. But to me it fair enough cause he has privilege to be more on Air and interact with masses. He is really a help.

    Regards

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    You mean like Soviet Afghanistan? The Paks were stupid enough to take on two superior military powers, India and the USSR, why would Pakistan decline the challenge to her leadership by China?
    Well, they are paying the price to this day. They destoryed their civil society by becoming the proxy for a Superpower.

    I do hope they have learned something from that fiasco.
    There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don’t..

  14. #74
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    @OoE Sir,

    I think India is betting on USA, to make Pakistan an enemy of China.

    Even if Kashmir Issue is resolved tomorrow, Pakistan army will be bluffing to China that they have a role to play for massive Indian army presence on its International borders.

    It will always be USA's call to make Pakistan not fight till last Chinese against India. Will China fight till last Pakistani? I think the trust deficit is mutual and is visible on all misadventures of Pakistan.
    One may suggest that Pakistan never took China into trust during any offences against India. But the same also explains how Pakistan takes it animosity with India Independent of China factor. They do not even give credit to China for her assistance in nuclear technology.

    Regards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinod2070 View Post
    That's interesting. I think it is a little far fetched. Not all of China's neighbors are exactly too friendly and they have not been punished for betrayal.

    I always thought that Tibet and Xingxiang are buffer zones for China. It won't start a war in the West (that too with a nuclear weapon country) just to lash out. Assuming Pakistan has the backing of USA, it won't be a wise move.
    Betrayal = Changing Sides. Vietnam did it (de facto) and the Sino-Vietnam War was the result; it was based on this event and study of Chinese strategic outlook that OoE predicted such a war in the first place.

    The Chinese supplied the Pak nuke program, so presumably they know a thing or two about controlling it. Tibet indeed acts as a buffer-zone in this case, as few Pak capabilities reach beyond this zone. And the US would certainly not have signed a treaty to come to Pak's defense so early in its peace bid with India, given Pak's propensity for loose cannon action.

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