Thread: Blackwater out of Iraq ?

Originally Posted by Bluesman

Okay, one at a time...
Correct, and for the most part, they're worth it, too. But here's WHY your nephew doesn't much like the people that are sharing the dangers with him in order to see to it that he can do his job properly: ENVY. He sees them getting LOTS more money than he gets, and he doesn't see the other side of it. .

OK Blues you read this one right!

It think it WAS envy all the way along!!

I spoke to Theo this afternoon. He has been in conversation with a buddy of mine - John ( ex-sniper instructor US Army) who went to play in the sandbox with Dyncorp. John spent 2 years near Mosul ( he was also a demolition expert) blowing up old Saddam's arsenal, before it fell in unwanted hands.

This boy has paid off his house, and has made a downpayment on a small horse farm ( it's what his better half always wanted - raise horses ) and is also now a Sgt. with Garland Police.

he pointed out to Theo that the skills he used to serve his country, are still marketable, needed, and he would have serious financial security once he was done.

The upshot?

Theo is now talking to Dyncorp, and is ready to sign a 2 year contract for about $110k/ year! dayum!!

Talk about a change of heart!

His dad Rueben ( my cousin) is livid that he is going back there - but Theo's mind is made up.

In many ways I think the contractors enhance force levels ( levels that our Goverment did not provide - thanks Rummy!

John (ex-Dyncorp) has always maintained they DO have accountability. " The Army has their BS rules and so do we", he says but does not elaborate much.

It appears as if the contractors do not have the transparency the Army does.

Just even more questions huh?

Bush has made another gaffe.

But it was fun!

I think he eats, drinks, sleeps and dreams of Saddam and Iraq!

Bush's Mandela death gaffe

Article from: NEWS.com.au



By staff writers

September 21, 2007 10:27pm

NELSON Mandela is still very much alive despite a gaffe by US President George W. Bush, who alluded to the former South African leader's death in a speech yesterday.

"It's out there," said Achmat Dangor of the Nelson Mandela Foundation of Mr Bush's comment, which received worldwide media coverage.

"All we can do is reassure people, especially South Africans, that President Mandela is alive," he said.

In a speech defending his administration's Iraq policy, Mr Bush said former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein's brutality had made it impossible to unite the l

"I heard somebody say, 'Where's Mandela?'," he said.

"Well, Mandela's dead because Saddam Hussein killed all the Mandelas."

The bizarre gaffe was made in a press conference in Washington yesterday.

Mandela became South Africa's first black president in 1994. He won a Nobel Peace Prize for preaching racial harmony and guiding the nation into the post-apartheid era.

References to his death – Mandela is now 89 and increasingly frail – are seen as insensitive in South Africa.

With Reuters
Bush's Mandela death gaffe | The Courier-Mail

This is something that I dont agree with, no private individual should be allowed to kill. Its the duty of US Forces not some civilians.

Originally Posted by Ray

Bush has made another gaffe.

But it was fun!

I think he eats, drinks, sleeps and dreams of Saddam and Iraq!

You and Reuters got it wrong again, Ray. Reuters has fact-checkers that seem to be sleeping on the job. If you'd like, I can perform the same function for YOU.

You serve an important function here, Ray. By seeing through your eyes, an American can see what other nations perceive about America. We can see what you're being told, and what you think about it. We can better understand why most of the world has no goddam' idea what's really happening. This bogus story, so blatantly wrong, so clearly used to stir up the exact feelings that you have, is a perfect example of somebody abroad being fed something false, and falling for it hook, line, and sinker, because it accords with all the other false things that you've been told and now believe.

So, I believe that your perspective gives all Americans a chance to find out about the people that have malevolent intentions towards the US, and the people that are gullible enough to believe them. And that's valuable.

Originally Posted by Adux

This is something that I dont agree with, no private individual should be allowed to kill. Its the duty of US Forces not some civilians.

However, the part you're leaving out is that it is everybody's right to defend themselves.

From Captain's Quarters, a direct hit:

There Are Morons, But They Don't Include George Bush
It has become apparent that some journalists covering President Bush either have a learning disability or work extra hard to twist his words until the reporters turn into novelists. The latest to prove this theory correct works for Reuters, which sent out a story that claimed George Bush thought that Nelson Mandela had died, when in fact Bush used an analogy that clearly sailed over Reuters' head. It also showed that some progressive bloggers don't do much research when jumping all over a news quote: (via Memeorandum, Instapundit, and Best of the Web)

Nelson Mandela is still very much alive despite an embarrassing gaffe by U.S. President George W. Bush, who alluded to the former South African leader's death in an attempt to explain sectarian violence in Iraq.
"It's out there. All we can do is reassure people, especially South Africans, that President Mandela is alive," Achmat Dangor, chief executive officer of the Nelson Mandela Foundation, said as Bush's comments received worldwide coverage.

In a speech defending his administration's Iraq policy, Bush said former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's brutality had made it impossible for a unifying leader to emerge and stop the sectarian violence that has engulfed the Middle Eastern nation.

"I heard somebody say, Where's Mandela?' Well, Mandela's dead because Saddam Hussein killed all the Mandelas," Bush, who has a reputation for verbal faux pas, said in a press conference in Washington on Thursday.

Wow -- what a tool George Bush must be, huh? Except that's not the context of what he said. The transcript shows that Bush used an analogy that first appeared in the press almost two weeks ago, to zero faux outrage:

There is local reconciliation taking place. I had a fascinating conversation in the Roosevelt Room earlier this week with members of provincial reconstruction teams from around Iraq who talked about how people are sick and tired of murder and violence, and that they expect their local governments and their central government to be more responsive to their needs, and local governments are beginning to respond.
Part of the reason why there is not this instant democracy in Iraq is because people are still recovering from Saddam Hussein's brutal rule. I thought an interesting comment was made when somebody said to me, I heard somebody say, where's Mandela? Well, Mandela is dead, because Saddam Hussein killed all the Mandelas. He was a brutal tyrant that divided people up and split families, and people are recovering from this. So there's a psychological recovery that is taking place. And it's hard work for them. And I understand it's hard work for them. Having said that, I'm not going the give them a pass when it comes to the central government's reconciliation efforts.

You know, it's funny that no one accused Ryan Crocker of not knowing Mandela still lives. On September 9th, a much-linked article on the history of the surge appeared in the Washington Post -- and deep within the article, we find this:

Bush rejected suggestions to help oust Maliki, reasoning that he was the product of a democratic system that the United States helped establish in Iraq, aides said. Moreover, as officials contemplated alternatives, they concluded there was no better potential leader. "There's no Nelson Mandela in Iraq," Crocker, the ambassador, told colleagues back in Washington. "Saddam killed them all."

Clearly, even from Bush's own words, he quoted Crocker (without naming him) saying "Mandela's dead, because Saddam killed all the Mandelas." Bush didn't claim that the Nelson Mandela himself was specifically dead -- he used Mandela as a metaphor for the lack of civil disobedients that could have facilitated a peaceful transition of power. Those that had existed in Iraq got murdered by the tyrant, a fate that did not befall Nelson Mandela in South Africa.

It's really a simple analogy. In fact, it's so simple that everyone but a Reuters journalist could figure it out. That does mean a moron attended the press conference, but it wasn't the man behind the podium.

And once again, we've all been lied to by the MSM, those pros that are ever-so-much more trustworthy than alternative media 'amatuers'. And SOME of us, apparently, were fully prepared to believe 'em. Because it fits what they've already been conditioned to believe: Bush is an idiot.

Another one:

Manufactured controversy of the day: “Mandela’s dead,” says Bushposted at 10:46 am on September 21, 2007 by Allahpundit
I wish I could hang this on the nutroots but even al-Reuters is pushing it. It’s perfectly clear what Bush means: after 30 years of state-sanctioned terror against political dissidents, there are no peacemakers left in Iraq to reunite the country through their leadership and moral example as Mandela did in South Africa. That’s a line Ryan Crocker has used repeatedly, including in his testimony last week. Bush expressed it more forcefully here, but more effectively for having done so. Think Progress’s headline: “Bush inartfully suggests Saddam killed Mandela.” Not only do they have a funny, jerky little habit of misunderstanding members of the administration when the opportunity allows, their rebuttal to Bush in their post is feeble. If you want to criticism him for this, you’ve got two good grounds: (1) if the Mandelas were all dead before we got there, perhaps that should have been taken into account pre-invasion, and (2) the fact is there are a few Mandelas still left in Iraq. They just can’t get political traction.

Originally Posted by Bluesman

You and Reuters got it wrong again, Ray. Reuters has fact-checkers that seem to be sleeping on the job. If you'd like, I can perform the same function for YOU.

You serve an important function here, Ray. By seeing through your eyes, an American can see what other nations perceive about America. We can see what you're being told, and what you think about it. We can better understand why most of the world has no goddam' idea what's really happening. This bogus story, so blatantly wrong, so clearly used to stir up the exact feelings that you have, is a perfect example of somebody abroad being fed something false, and falling for it hook, line, and sinker, because it accords with all the other false things that you've been told and now believe.

So, I believe that your perspective gives all Americans a chance to find out about the people that have malevolent intentions towards the US, and the people that are gullible enough to believe them. And that's valuable.

I am glad you realise it that we see events as we see in our media, on the web and on TV, both Indian and international including US TV channels.

I, however, did see the TV clip that had Bush saying that Mandela was dead etc etc.

Was it doctored?

While we see the events from 'the outside' and may even be critical, it does not mean that we are anti US or anti Bush. Our Prime Minister is on record saying that Bush has done more for India than any other President and, interesting as it were, I had said it long before!

I, however, do not belief in blind faith, be it of the religious form or political partisanship.

I see it as I comprehend and I concede that I maybe wrong, but then would appreciate in being shown the light, preferably with facts and not opinions so that I am not better and solid ground!

Given all you said Blues, "references to his death – Mandela is now 89 and increasingly frail – are seen as insensitive in South Africa." That is still an insulting remark to make on such an old, frail man. If you ask me, the crappy PR Bush is getting, which you are referring to, is getting to him. Who else is Bush going to piss off by shooting off his mouth like that?

Blackwater Faulted In Military Reports From Shooting Scene

By Sudarsan Raghavan, Joshua Partlow and Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, October 5, 2007; Page A01

BAGHDAD, Oct. 4 -- U.S. military reports from the scene of the Sept. 16 shooting incident involving the security firm Blackwater USA indicate that its guards opened fire without provocation and used excessive force against Iraqi civilians, according to a senior U.S. military official.


The reports came to light as an Interior Ministry official and five eyewitnesses described a second deadly shooting minutes after the incident in Nisoor Square. The same Blackwater security guards, after driving about 150 yards away from the square, fired into a crush of cars, killing one person and injuring two, the Iraqi official said.

The U.S. military reports appear to corroborate the Iraqi government's contention that Blackwater was at fault in the shooting incident in Nisoor Square, in which hospital records say at least 14 people were killed and 18 were wounded.

"It was obviously excessive, it was obviously wrong," said the U.S. military official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the incident remains the subject of several investigations. "The civilians that were fired upon, they didn't have any weapons to fire back at them. And none of the IP or any of the local security forces fired back at them," he added, using a military abbreviation for the Iraqi police. The Blackwater guards appeared to have fired grenade launchers in addition to machine guns, the official said.

The company has said its guards acted appropriately after being attacked. Blackwater Chairman Erik Prince, in previously unpublicized remarks prepared for delivery at a congressional hearing Tuesday, said the Blackwater guards "came under small-arms fire" and "returned fire at threatening targets."

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack hinted Thursday that Blackwater guards could face legal proceedings. Announcing a decision to have FBI agents lead a State Department inquiry into the shootings, he said it was "a hedge against the possibility that an investigation leads to the point where there may need to be a referral" to U.S. prosecutors.

In response to the shootings, the Pentagon is also conducting a broad review of its relationship with the private security contractors it employs. The military has issued about 7,000 weapons permits to private contractors, the senior U.S. military official said, but has stopped issuing new permits until it can review who has the weapons and how they have been used.

Many U.S. military officials are critical of Blackwater because its guards have a reputation for reckless behavior that officials say reflects poorly on American troops in Iraq. Iraqi citizens often do not distinguish between U.S. soldiers in Humvees and Blackwater guards in armored vehicles.

"They tend to overreact to a lot of things. They maneuver around town very aggressively, they've got weapons pointed at people, they cut people off, of course their speeds -- I mean a whole bunch of things they do fairly consistently. But when it comes to shooting and firing, they tend to shoot quicker than others," the U.S. military official said.

U.S. soldiers have reviewed statements from eyewitnesses and video footage recorded at Nisoor Square, the official said. Members of a U.S. unit working with Iraqi police were present in the area at the time of the shootings. U.S. soldiers also helped ferry victims to hospitals.

Blackwater, whose primary task in Iraq is to protect U.S. diplomats, has been unwilling to share information about the incident with the U.S. military, the official said, adding that military officials went to Blackwater's compound in the Green Zone but were denied access to company managers.

Anne Tyrell, a Blackwater spokeswoman, said the company was "cooperating with all investigations" and deferred further comment until they are complete.

The prepared testimony of Blackwater Chairman Prince is the company's fullest accounting to date of the events at Nisoor Square. Portions of the remarks dealing with the incident were left out of his testimony to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee after the Justice Department, on the morning of the hearing, warned that the incident was under investigation and should not be discussed in public session.

The testimony said that after a Blackwater team delivered a U.S. government official to a Baghdad destination, a "very large" car bomb exploded "in close proximity to their location." After the team "secured its principal and requested support for its evacuation," a second Blackwater team proceeded to an intersection "approximately one mile away from the explosion site to secure a route of egress" for the first team.

When the second team arrived at Nisoor Square, it said, "they came under small-arms fire and notified the first team to proceed along a different route. The vehicle team still in the intersection continued to receive fire, and some team members returned fire at threatening targets. Among the threats identified were men with AK-47s firing on the convoy, as well as approaching vehicles that appeared to be suicide car bombers."

The team attempted to leave, but "one of their vehicles was disabled by enemy fire" and eventually had to be towed. "Some of those firing on this Blackwater team appeared to be wearing Iraqi National Police uniforms, or portions of such uniforms. As the withdrawal occurred, the Blackwater vehicles remained under fire from such personnel."

According to Prince's prepared testimony, which cautioned that his "current understanding" remained incomplete, only five members of the 20-member team ever discharged their weapons "in response to the threat." Blackwater helicopters "did assist in directing the teams to safety, but contrary to some reports, no one in the helicopters discharged any weapons."
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In the testimony he did deliver, Prince said that "based on everything we currently know, the Blackwater team acted appropriately while operating in a very complex war zone." He said that there was a "rush to judgment based on inaccurate information, and many public reports have wrongly pronounced Blackwater's guilt for the death of varying numbers of civilians."

McCormack, the State Department spokesman, did not say under which U.S. laws Blackwater employees could face prosecution. Contractors are immune from Iraqi law under an order issued by the U.S. occupation government in 2004. Although Defense Department contractors are liable under U.S. military codes, the extent to which those working for State are within the jurisdiction of U.S. civilian courts remains "murky," the head of the department's diplomatic security operations said in congressional testimony Tuesday.

Blackwater and other security firms providing personal security under contract to the State Department have been implicated in a number of previous Iraqi civilian deaths, injuries and property damage incidents in recent years, but no one has ever been prosecuted in the incidents.

Andrew J. Moonen, 27, a former Blackwater employee from Kalispell, Mont., was identified Thursday as the primary suspect in the killing of an Iraqi vice president's bodyguard last Christmas Eve inside the Green Zone. Lawyer Stewart P. Riley confirmed that he was representing the U.S. Army veteran but declined to say whether Moonen had been interviewed by investigators. The New York Times revealed Moonen's identity.

"I want to underscore that he has cooperated from the very beginning and has never stopped cooperating," Riley said.

Eyewitnesses to the events of Sept. 16 said the Blackwater convoy, after leaving Nisoor Square, headed north and drove into a knot of cars trying to go down a side road to avoid the square.

"They came at a high speed," said Uday Khalid, 25, a policeman. "They just wanted to escape. They were shooting their way out. They were yelling and shouting."

One Iraqi driver slammed on his brakes and tried to turn around, as did other cars. But a Blackwater guard "immediately opened fire on them," said Amar Kurdi, 30, a policeman who tried to manage the traffic to allow the convoy to pass through.

Kurdi said that he saw only the guards from the rearmost Blackwater vehicle shooting. But the Iraqi Interior Ministry official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he is close to the Iraqi government's investigation of the incident, said guards fired from all four vehicles.

The Blackwater guards fired warning shots whenever one of the police officers tried to help the injured, the officers said. "We tried to help the people who were shot, but they wouldn't let us," said Mahdi Daoud, 29, another policeman guarding a civil defense compound.

Moments later, the road cleared and the convoy sped away.

DeYoung reported from Washington. Staff writers Steve Fainaru in El Cerrito, Calif., and Ann Scott Tyson in Washington, and special correspondents Saad al-Izzi and K.I. Ibrahim contributed to this report.
Blackwater Faulted In Military Reports From Shooting Scene - washingtonpost.com

The US Army has done enough of sacrifices and have to a great extent brought some semblance of law and order in a chaotic and dangerous Iraq.

One hardly requires these private security organisation personnel to go Rambo and ruin all the good done!

Originally Posted by Julie

Given all you said Blues, "references to his death – Mandela is now 89 and increasingly frail – are seen as insensitive in South Africa." That is still an insulting remark to make on such an old, frail man. If you ask me, the crappy PR Bush is getting, which you are referring to, is getting to him. Who else is Bush going to piss off by shooting off his mouth like that?

So, that's what we're down to, Julie? The manufactured 'controversy', so blatantly mis-represented, doesn't do the trick of provoking enough outrage, so the fall-back position is to allege that Bush was being 'insensitive'?

Hell, woman, EVERYthing that could possibly be said by anybody about anything could be construed as offensive by somebody. Are you REALLY saying that you believe Bush WAS insensitive by saying what he said?

What Bush said was a COMPLIMENT to Mandela. He was saying that the men of courage, the men Iraq needs now, just like South Africa needed Nelson Mandela, have all been killed by Saddam. Don't you see that? Are you REALLY that clueless?

Here's something I just want you to acknowledge, if you're still capable of being objective, re: President Bush: everything he says is going to be twisted by people of bad will into something he never said, or if he said it, was not what he meant. Look at Ray; apparently, he STILL thinks Bush said Mandela was dead, because that's what he's been told Bush said, and it accords with his belief that Bush is an idiot.

The fact is, and you bear out this point every single time you comment on Bush, he cannot be judged fairly anymore by people that are opposed to him. It's not that they merely have a different point-of-view; the only view they CAN have anymore, the only thought they're even capable of, is relentlessly negative, so much so that ANY action, word, or even mannerism is seen as sinister, malevolent, or as a sign of sub-par intelligence.

THIS non-issue is a perfect example of it. First, Bush is portrayed as an idiot, because he supposedly thought that Mandela was dead. Because that was provably false and demonstrated as such, the theme then changed to Bush being crass and insensitive.

The reality was 180-out, and anybody that can read and understand English knows that...IF...they're objective enough to see it.

You and Ray don't qualify.

Whatever.....I have just noticed lately that the more Bush keeps his mouth shut, the better things are for everybody.

to be fair to bush,

he has improved enormously as a president, both in leadership capabilities and in the positions which he takes. the disasters of his first term (both in his political defeats AND victories) is a pretty insightful lesson into what happens when ideologues and not pragmatists run gov'ts.

Originally Posted by Julie

Whatever.....I have just noticed lately that the more Bush keeps his mouth shut, the better things are for everybody.

Then you managed, as you always seem to do, to take entirely the wrong lesson away from this.

Try this on instead: the more the Bush-Haters spin everything he says into a scandal/controversy/gaffe, the worse things are for everybody.

THAT is what happened here. Nothing Bush said could be construed by a reasonable person as improper in any way. And yet, look what it was turned into by people of ill-will.