Thread: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? Actually, It May Become Worse

Colonel,

Since you ar a good military historian and a thinking man, may I suggest that you read Philip Mason's A MATTER OF HONOUR.

Though written by a Britisher, I think that encompasses the phases of the British Indian Army.

It is a great book.

Thugees are not important since that was a social hassle that was sorted out by the British as also by Indian reformers.

The Indian Sepoy Mutiny or First War of Independence is a different kettle of fish.

Believe me, terrorism is very difficult to erradicated. Especially the Islamic one. Their mindset is wierd and outlandish and beyond logic.

A group that is brainwashed to believe 72 virgins up there if they die for Islam is beyond teaching the verities of the present life. Imagine, you screw the present life and hope for a beautiful beyond which you don't know really exist. If you can;t get one virgin in your present life, what the hell of dreaming about 72! Wierd.

The mindset baffles me.

Lucien,

Much that I hate to believe, you will never control Iraq.

Terrorists (or guerilla Warfare) is way out. The spawn like maggots. They tax your patience. They tax your economy. They tax your peace of mind.

We have been able to win the hearts and mind to a great extent after so many years and that too with velvet gloves attitude at the cost of our armed forces morale and lives.

You are going with a sledgehammer. They will hate you since many innocents who wish the end of all this are dying.

If your brother and your whole family were wiped. Would you sit back and welcome folks who killed them with flwoers?

If your whole life is not worth a tuppence, then would you not avenge?

Thus, a person not interested in all this mayhem becomes a terrorists since his whole life is ruined and he has no hope.

A large majority of the Iraqi population ahs been affected. They are terrorists or 'secret' terrorists. They will avenge. Islam gives them that rage. I am aeen all the religions since in India the interaction is very close, as also in the Army we have every type of people and religion. I hve found that Moslems are very unforgiving. A tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye and they damn you. Their religion is very militant and not namby pamby with all the compassion and forgiveness pizzazz. By weatern standards, they are as dangerous a suitcase nukes.

You folks are taking them by applying your standards and at every step you are being surprised.

Don;t underestimate them. I wish you folks see light as Jesus said - let their be light. Or else you will fade as the vanquished.

I know this is not palatable, but it is time to see reality and work towards a succesfful conclusion rather than flounder will blinkers on your eyes.

For God sake, let us not have a repeat Vietnam.

For God sake, please.

Stuff the jingoism up the nearest orifice and open up your eyes.

Or else the world has had it.

Grim, man. I don't say you're wrong, but the only way I think this works out well is if a significant portion of Iraqis decide their hope lies WITH us, not AGAINST us.

You're right; we'll never control Iraq. But perhaps enough of 'em will hitch their wagons to another star besides the terrorists', and will try something new: an election, where their votes count for something, and they get to participate and use their voice. It sounds idealistic, but I see evidence that they want to try it. And MORE evidence that they are all sick of the trouble brought to them and their families by the terrorists (especially the foreign ones). They blame the Bad Guys more than they blame us.

A lot of them - and the number is growing - trust us and believe we have decent motives. They are grateful for what we've done for 'em, and are at least willing to acknowledge that whatever misery we're responsible for, it could only be worse if it were anybody else but the US causing it.

But you're right: we still have a helluva lot of selling to do to get 'em behind our program.

Originally Posted by Ray

Colonel,

Since you ar a good military historian and a thinking man, may I suggest that you read Philip Mason's A MATTER OF HONOUR.

My thanks, Sir. Will check if my library has it before trying to find it on line.

Originally Posted by Ray

Thugees are not important since that was a social hassle that was sorted out by the British as also by Indian reformers.

The Indian Sepoy Mutiny or First War of Independence is a different kettle of fish.

Sir, I am well aware of the differences. This is the same British Empire who also failed in the exact same Iraqi region. However, the Indian example is one which I use to counter Lucien's assertion that deadly force is the only way to impose one's will.

Originally Posted by Ray

Believe me, terrorism is very difficult to erradicated. Especially the Islamic one. Their mindset is wierd and outlandish and beyond logic.

A group that is brainwashed to believe 72 virgins up there if they die for Islam is beyond teaching the verities of the present life. Imagine, you screw the present life and hope for a beautiful beyond which you don't know really exist. If you can;t get one virgin in your present life, what the hell of dreaming about 72! Wierd.

The mindset baffles me.

Sir, I'm joining your club. At this point and having lack your experience and having no expertise in guerrilla/counter-insurgency/counter-terror warfare, I've given up trying to understand the enemy and instead concentrate on things I do understand. No matter what his motivation, no matter if he believes 72 virgins waiting for him or a 1000 crocadiles ready to eat his balls, he is still a man ... and I can and will kill him.

Sir, it takes 18 years to grow a terrorist. And there are only so many of them who are willing to fight me today.

[QUOTE= or a 1000 crocadiles ready to eat his balls, he is still a man ... and I can and will kill him.

Sir, it takes 18 years to grow a terrorist. And there are only so many of them who are willing to fight me today.[/QUOTE]

Colonel

Let 1000 crocodiles take them.

They are no men. They Devils Incarnate with their stupid Islamic crap.

Men fight man to man. Women fight the way they do.

[QUOTE=Ray]Colonel,
Since you ar a good military historian and a thinking man, may I suggest that you read Philip Mason's A MATTER OF HONOUR.

Though written by a Britisher, I think that encompasses the phases of the British Indian Army.

The Indian Sepoy Mutiny or First War of Independence is a different kettle of fish.

QUOTE]
Ray, I can't find any mention of Philip Mason's A MATTER OF HONOUR online and my library has a heinous habit of selling its historical texts ( ).
Just a question about "The Indian Sepoy Mutiny or First War of Independence is a different kettle of fish".
I'm aware of the pig fat cartridge issue and Russias' role as agent provocateur, also that there was a lessening of respect towards the Sepoys amongst the British commanders from 'Gentlemen Warriors' to general conscripts, but I wasn't aware that there was a view amongst Indians of independence during this time, probably because all the texts I've read are British. Was independence a strong issue during the 'Mutiny'?

Originally Posted by parihaka

Was independence a strong issue during the 'Mutiny'?

Yes, independence or removal of the British from power was an issue. There are various factors, but one main factor is that the Indian kingdoms and princes slowing started to realise that the British were becoming rulers from traders.

Lucien, what is it that you want the US to do in Iraq? If they persure your policy of killing everyone that opposes them then it will only lead to a popular uprising against the Coalition's draconian tactics. Do you want the US to stabilise Iraq, or do you want the US to subjugate it? I can tell you now that the sledge-hammer aproach, with carpet bombing of cities and torturing of prisoners etc. will only lead to Iraq becoming another Vietnam. After all, no was prepared to believe the '"We had to destory the city to save it" line then, and no one will believe it now.

Originally Posted by -{SpoonmaN}-

If they persure your policy of killing everyone that opposes them then it will only lead to a popular uprising against the Coalition's draconian tactics.

Haha, thats a good one, draconian, what does that make Gengis Khan then......

Give me a break, the U.S. is trying TOO hard to be PC in all this.

Originally Posted by parihaka

I'm aware of the pig fat cartridge issue and Russias' role as agent provocateur, also that there was a lessening of respect towards the Sepoys amongst the British commanders from 'Gentlemen Warriors' to general conscripts, but I wasn't aware that there was a view amongst Indians of independence during this time, probably because all the texts I've read are British. Was independence a strong issue during the 'Mutiny'?

Russia had no role to play. What makes yoy say this? I sure would like to know since I missed out on this.

Dalhousie's Doctrine of Lapse where unless the King had his biological born, the kingdom came into British hands, was the real reason.


The book, 'Matter of Honour' has been published by Peregrine Books. I have the 1974 copy. Do read it, if you want to have some background of the British Indian Army and its heritage. This book is very readable and not heavy.


As far as it being the first war or not, it is controversial. But that is the first time, most Indians got their act together to take on the British.

Smiling,

The US maybe doing the right thing, but it is doing it the wrong way.

Sledgehammer is not the answer, nor Bible bashing.

If one destroys everything, it is not creating.

If one shove his relgion on others, that actually repels.

Christian compassion should not be forgotten. That converted many, many and even those unwilling!

Originally Posted by Ray

Smiling,

The US maybe doing the right thing, but it is doing it the wrong way.

Sledgehammer is not the answer, nor Bible bashing.

If one destroys everything, it is not creating.

If one shove his relgion on others, that actually repels.

Christian compassion should not be forgotten. That converted many, many and even those unwilling!

Yeah Ray
! just like in India! cheap [EDIT] along with Rs 200/- per month, and you convert the entire country side and beggars!

I know how that works!

[EDIT]

To match you rather 'interesting' observation, may I say that at least that Rs 200 given would go some distance to allievate some poverty for sometime.

Do let us know how conversions are done in India since you know how it is done. Have you some experience in either being converted or in converting? If so, who could be better than you in explaining the system of conversion.

Maybe it would be better to start a thread.

Confed,

You keep editing Lull's posts.

How come you know the subcontinental cuss words?