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Reply With QuoteBut one which only the military can handle.
Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
And that is a political issue, not a war-fighting one.
"If I see further than other men, it is because I stand upon the shoulders of giants."
--Sir Isaac Newton
But one which only the military can handle.
Chimo
And after you've beaten the daylights out of the country, it's probably something more easily handed. I'd rather them dealing with a bunch of thoroughly pacified, shell-shocked civilians than having to deal with a bunch of whiney civilians--some of whom are undoubtedly supporting the insurgents.
It's a moot point. America isn't going to fight the type of war we fought in WWII because we don't have the stomach for it anymore. Now THAT is what is really short-sighted.
And we will continue to fight guerrilla-style wars until we relearn some very important lessons of history. War isn't about winning the peace while trying to still win the fighting. I'll leave the hearts and minds aspect to the aid agencies, do-gooders, and UN 'deep-thinkers.'
"If I see further than other men, it is because I stand upon the shoulders of giants."
--Sir Isaac Newton
So are you proposing that we should've rolled BUFFs over Baghdad and mass carpet bombed the whole city?
LOL
I wasn't proposing any specific action. I was only commenting on our misguided approach to fighting recent wars, in general.
"If I see further than other men, it is because I stand upon the shoulders of giants."
--Sir Isaac Newton
The Russian experience in Chechnya, the American experience in Somalia, and my own experience in Krajina say otherwise.
They recover fast. Grozny is now a ghost city but didn't stop the Chechens from doing some pretty horrible stuff. The Kosovo ethnic Albanians sought vengence almost immediately. And the Krajina Serbs took up arms in the Sarajevo sector and sought vengence at Srebrenica.
Except the ending of WWII ain't as clean as you would like. Fighting raged on for years afterwards with Nazi insurgency close to what is now happenning. Entire Japanese garrisons still had to be destroyed into the 50s. In fact, I believe the last Japanese soldier only surrendered in the 90s.
We've could probably done better but not that much better. We could have reduced our footprint but that's about it.
Chimo
Chechnya isn't a good parallel because it's people are fighting to free themselves of Russian control. The Russians aren't trying to liberate the Chechens. In their minds, they are fighting for their survival. Even so, the Russians have held back. Otherwise, Chechnya would be a pile of rubble as a whole.
Somalia is simply another example of limited warfare gone wrong.
Resistance by Nazi holdouts after WWII has been greatly overplayed--as were Japanese holdouts. Yes, they existed, but their exploits are nothing but a very minor footnote in the aftermath of WWII. I challenge you to show me an example of one American soldier that died as a result of their actions.
"If I see further than other men, it is because I stand upon the shoulders of giants."
--Sir Isaac Newton
After 2 wars, what is left but rubble? The cities are ghost towns.
You missed the point here. Starving refugees ain't as pacified as you think.
Relative to WWII, yes, the actions are minor. However, relative to Baghdad Airport and Operation Thunder Run, Falluja is a minor footnote. Don't know about American casualties but the Soviets had a hell of a time in Czechoslavakia and Thailand had insurgency problems for decades.
However, I think you're missing the point here. The point is there is no magic solution. Everything is long term. Even the Mongol solution to Afghanistan (every Mongol soldier to collect 300 heads each) took over 5 years to implement and even then, Afghanistan collapsed back into anarchy after the death of the Great Khan.
Chimo
That happens in nearly every war...
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry
You're right, there is no magic solution. And the introduction of a rebuilding effort and elections while fighting still rages is definitely a smoke and mirrors solution.
We can be as willfully blind to the eventual outcome in Iraq as we want, but it won't change that outcome. The Iraqis aren't up to the task of maintaining any democracy once we leave. It's that simple. Arabs have been sheep to dictators, bullies, and maniacal holy men since the dawn of time. Either don't appreciate freedom or they don't care (I'm apt to believe the latter).
So why are we expending the lives of American soldiers in a futile effort to give them a gift that they either don't understand or will never appreciate enough to keep it going.
Ultimately, freedom and democracy failed in Viet Nam because the Vietnamese didn't give a damn about it.
And we are now repeating history...with a mostly indifferent Iraqi population in the role of the Vietnamese. Like it or not, freedom to most of the people of the world is about having enough food to eat and not getting tortured by the government. Until THEY discover for themselves that freedom can mean more--or until they can truly appreciate what it means--then our liberation of any peoples is going to be short-lived.
The only time giving freedom has worked is when we've totally pacified those we have conquered and then occupied their nations for the long-term.
That doesn't mean we don't go in and kick the crap out of someone when necessary, but we need to do it in a way that doesn't get muddied up by a lot of misplaced do-gooder motivations that will come to naught eventually.
We just need to keep the military and political agendas separate.
"If I see further than other men, it is because I stand upon the shoulders of giants."
--Sir Isaac Newton
If we are truly serious about having democracy and freedom in the Middle East, then we have to get past the ludicrous notion that we can do it one country and consider our work done. Arab leaders don't want freedom in Iraq. They think to themselves, "Hey, this time it was Saddam, next time it will be me." As such they probably aren't going to do a lot to help American efforts. In fact, most will probably try to undermine those efforts--even if it means waiting until after the Americans have left. Iran is already meddling in Iraqi affairs.
The only way freedom would ever take hold in the Middle East is if we invaded the entire region and killed every single Arab leader, every single mullah/holy man, separated their religion from their schools/government, and occupied them for a minimum of two generations.
Then, maybe then, they MIGHT learn the value of freedom.
Of course, we would never do such a thing.
"If I see further than other men, it is because I stand upon the shoulders of giants."
--Sir Isaac Newton
"I wasn't proposing any specific action. I was only commenting on our misguided approach to fighting recent wars, in general."
Well it's good to know YOU'VE got it all figured out...
Lucien LaCroix
An interesting commentary. At times, I too felt that way. But I reckon it was because of my frustration at the happenings.
I presume the immediate result of what you suggested would be subdued terrorists and civilians, because of the shock and awe. However, later when the revive from the shock, it could become a massive problem.
Fellujah was bombarded and many of the things that you have said was done, but of course, not to the scale that you mentioned. But, as you see the terrorists are back at their little tricks.
The only solution is genocide or the Final Solution; but I am afraid in this modern world, it will not be possible.
Well, at least I hope it will not be possible.
I do hope things will work out finally.
Last edited by Ray; 07 Dec 04, at 13:34.
Report: CIA offers bleak Iraq assessment
Classified cable described as 'unusually candid'
Iraq is already a failure, and the officials are acknowledging it to be just that! Any other opinion is retarded and stupid! Ppl have to stop bullshiitting on this forum! The A-raanbs are very empowered right now, and are pouring in from Saudi Arabia/ jordan like crazy! Bush cannot fight them forever! No way!
Updated: 10:09 a.m. ET Dec. 7, 2004
NEW YORK - The situation in Iraq is unlikely to improve anytime soon, according to a classified cable and briefings from the Central Intelligence Agency, the New York Times reported Tuesday.
The assessments are more pessimistic than the Bush administration’s portrayal of the situation to the public, government officials told the newspaper.
The classified cable — sent last month by the CIA’s station chief in Baghdad after the completion of a one-year tour of duty there — painted a bleak picture of Iraq’s politics, economics and security and reiterated briefings by Michael Kostiw, a senior CIA official, according to the Times.
The station chief cannot be identified because he is still working undercover, the Times added.
The cable, described as “unusually candid,” cautioned that security in the country is likely to deteriorate unless the Iraqi government makes significant progress in asserting its authority and building up the economy, the paper said.
Spokesmen for the White House and the CIA told the Times that they could not discuss intelligence matters and classified documents.
Copyright 2004 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.
Last edited by lulldapull; 07 Dec 04, at 15:52.
Lull,
Are you serious about that red print of your on top of the reply?
I agree things could be better
I agree people are dying both the Coalition soldiers and the Iraqis.
But what interests me is the contentions:
1. The Arabs are empowered. Before that they were not so? Now. do let us know what indicators show that they are empowered and likewise indicators that earlier they were not.
2. The Islamists are pourring in like crazy and they will ahve the world by the gonads.
On #2 I agree that the crazies are pouring in from all Moslem states. Heard of the 100 year war?
One point you must bear in mind. Many countries have still not joined in. But when their economies including Pakistan show signs of creaking too badly, they will also join, even if they do not agree with the rationale for the War.
Let's be very frank, all this jihad pizzazz is getting a trifle boring. As also the pious justification of Islamic Pollyannas who claim that they are but only deviationist, misguided souls and they don;pt represent the Islamic way of life.
Indeed if they don't, please be kind to give a fatwa or eliminate them before they eliminate you!
Give the clarion call from the mosques five times a day.
At least you guys are lucky. You can do it cheap. Just a loudspeaker and the blaring and loud Mullahs's voice. Its worked all the times. Try it once again, please for the sake of humanity.
We will then talk across the table if 'A' was wrong or 'B' was wrong to attack Iraq.
No using aeroplane and dropping leaflets or peace birds (Thailand), which is expensive.
Last edited by Ray; 07 Dec 04, at 16:12.
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