Tejas to experiment with Israeli avionics and weapons

**Tronic** · 18 May 07,, 23:17

Tejas to experiment with Israeli avionics and weapons

16 May, 2007 (FIDSNS)

As an intreme measure to speed up operationalizing the Light Combat Aircraft “Tejas,” India might consider Israeli Multimode radar and weapons. In an exclusive to FIDSNS the sources said that the last series of Limited Series Production (LSP) will be experimented for weaponisation.

In a written reply to parliament on May 16, 2007, the defence minister mentioned “M/s ELTA, Israel is the lowest bidder in response to a Request for Proposal (RFP) issued for procurement of some radars for the Indian Air Force. However, no contract has been signed with the firm.”

FIDSNS was informed that the Tejas LSP 2 is expected to be ready by October or November, 2007.

Meanwhile the Indian Multimode radar is to be miniaturised and the radar has already achieved its expected performance. A international partner is to be finalized shortly for the development of Tejas Engine.

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**joey** · 19 May 07,, 08:01

The article heading and body has no bearing.

The whole world knoes LSP -03 willintroduce MMR till then Elm 2032 radar.
was posted in AFM the same.

Radar and avionics are not same, Tejas doesnt and wont use any israeli avionics IIRC.

**~~wp2000~~** · 19 May 07,, 09:10

If I remembered correctly, AFM mentioned that LSP2 would be flying in April, and 2007 should see 4 LSPs in the air.

So, that means LSP3 with MMR would be ready for test flying only several months later than LSP1. My question is why bother with 2032? Your MMR is coming in months time anyway.

I guess the real question is which radar will be used in the production version LCA? 2032 or MMR?

**Archer** · 19 May 07,, 11:05

The aim is to weaponize asap and forestall critics of the program. If the MMR schedule slips by 6 months, or a year- whats going on right now is software work, the IAF will still have a weaponized LCA with it. And the first batch of LCAs can have Elta 2032s, if need be. The Jaguar IMs already have Elta 2032's so the IAF is familiar with it.

The current status of the MMR is that it needs software for its Air to Ground modes. Current work is going on STT and then DSTT. The Search, TWS, look, look down modes have been validated.

**~~wp2000~~** · 20 May 07,, 02:28

OK, I see. Although from a pure technical point of view, just because MMR may be delayed for 6-12 months is really not a good reason for introducing another radar since that new radar also needs years to be integrated too. I mean It would make much better sense if 2032 was selected 2 years ago and got integrated into PV1.

Oh, I didn't notice that LSP2 got delayed to Oct , so 2032 and MMR(on LSP3) may get into sky at the same time?

**Archer** · 20 May 07,, 13:27

The new radar wont take years to get integrated, since it has already been integrated on the Jaguar by HAL, and another variant will be integrated simultaneously on the Sea Harriers, at HAL itself. So it will be a quicker job than integrating a brand new type. The MMR needs time to mature in terms of software for multirole, ie A2G modes and the 2032 will get the weaponization process underway. The software for weaponization in terms of weapons delivery algos for the MC etc have already been developed.

**stupid** · 21 May 07,, 15:24

quoting an aviation expert -

Well given that Isreal also sold the multimode radar, Python 4 (based on US Sidewinder) F-16's Lavi technology and the Phalcon (SLAR AWACS) to China, I wouldn't give India much chance that Isreal will not also betray us by selling the secrets behind their radar system to a rival country.

It may however indicate that we no longer trusts Russian suppliers not to do the same, or that the Russian technology has operational limitations - which is more likely!

**Tronic** · 21 May 07,, 19:23

Originally Posted by stupid

Well given that Isreal also sold the multimode radar, Python 4 (based on US Sidewinder) F-16's Lavi technology and the Phalcon (SLAR AWACS) to China, I wouldn't give India much chance that Isreal will not also betray us by selling the secrets behind their radar system to a rival country.

Well, don't know about the multimode radar and the Python 4, but Israel didn't sell the Phalcon to China; sure, they had the intent to, and probably would have if it had not been due to the US, but heck, they didn't sell.

**~~wp2000~~** · 22 May 07,, 13:27

Originally Posted by Tronic

Well, don't know about the multimode radar and the Python 4, but Israel didn't sell the Phalcon to China; sure, they had the intent to, and probably would have if it had not been due to the US, but heck, they didn't sell.

Good, I think it's in everybody's interest to have such belief. Sure, Absolutely no Phalcon plane sold to China.

**Archer** · 23 May 07,, 20:26

I think you severely underestimate the chinese establishments R&D spend, and their national obsession with "made at home", which makes indias political commitment look like a wuss in comparison. I have followed PRC radar development for quite some time, and they are perfectly capable of fielding an AESA system on an airborne platform. It wont be the best, and it wont be as fancy as the Phalcon in terms of power management, modes, sensor fusion and other thingmajigs, but it will work. If technical consultancy was indeed sought, I would actually look at russia- and it may surprise you, but the Vega was to receive an AESA antenna. Coincidence, perhaps..

**tphuang** · 24 May 07,, 05:40

Well, the Pakistanis are buying our export AEW&C, which is not even using AESA radar. From what I can gather in a recent kanwa interview with someone high up in PAF, they seemed to think that one is offering more capabilities in certain areas than Erieye. And that's just a monkey product.

**~~wp2000~~** · 24 May 07,, 11:28

Originally Posted by Archer

I think you severely underestimate the chinese establishments R&D spend, and their national obsession with "made at home", which makes indias political commitment look like a wuss in comparison. I have followed PRC radar development for quite some time, and they are perfectly capable of fielding an AESA system on an airborne platform. It wont be the best, and it wont be as fancy as the Phalcon in terms of power management, modes, sensor fusion and other thingmajigs, but it will work. If technical consultancy was indeed sought, I would actually look at russia- and it may surprise you, but the Vega was to receive an AESA antenna. Coincidence, perhaps..

I know China's domestic radar industry is more capable than many outsideers think (When China's 052C was launched in 2003 and I talked about the Active PAR radar on several forums, most people didn't believe me).

There's no black and white answer: China has done a lot of R&D works in the airborne air defence network, and AWACS is an important node. But the years of exchange with Israles helped china as well. Out of the total project, maybe that help is only 10 percent, but that could be among the most important 20-30 percent of an AWACS project. It's not correct to say KJ2000 is a copy of Phlcon, but it's also not right to deny the knowledge learnt during the years of forming the IL76 based Phalcon system design.

**Archer** · 27 May 07,, 11:48

Thats a fair assessment in terms of learning from the Phalcon process, but one only learns so much when someone else is building the system. I was pointing to the reasonable postulate that the Phalcon will outperform the KJ-2000 given what we know of the former system, and the fact that the PRC is not really quite there in terms of radar & sensor capability that the Israelis draw upon. It is your assumption that there was Israeli assistance, and that it was critical. Neither is proven nor asserted by either the PRC or Israel or even third parties.

TPhuang,

As I have said before you are relentlessly overoptimistic when it comes to taking the "best possible" view of anything when it comes to the Chinese or local industry.
The Pakistanis are as PC as can be when it comes to protecting the honor and dignity of their largest dependable ally. Speak off the record to Pak servicemen or those who interact with them, and you'll realise that they still prefer western kit. But they cant afford it.

In this case, the level of access between the Erieye and the Chinese AEW&C will also play a role, as will the fact that the latter isnt going to clamp sanctions on Pak anytime soon.