Thread: They have the right to enrich uranium...

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Democracy, eh? Well, ignoring that thigh slapper outright, having the longest experience in the field of atomic weapons is irrelevent. Intentions are relevant.

You said America is like a kid. I say we are not like a kid, and provided supporting evidence. You say my statement and supporting evidence is a "thigh slapper." Having longest experience is irrelevant. OK what is relevant? You said intentions. OK, who in the last month, as the front man of a nation, called for wiping another nation off the map? It ain't Bush. It ain't Blair. It ain't even Putin. It was A-jad. I cannot read minds. He said something as a authoritative figure of a nation so we have to take his words at face value.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Are you saying Iraq bombed your buildings?

Not at all. Iraq defied UN resolutions, more than one...17 to be exact.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Saddam housing Al Qaeda? Saddam being involved in 9/11?

No one said that.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Saddam having WMD's that could be assembled in 45 minutes (Admittedly, i can't remember whether it was Blair or Bush who came out with the 45 mins jig).

I have never heard of the 45 min thing. But we know Iraq doesn't have WMD because we went in there to take a look. Were you 100% certain in 2002 that Saddam didn't have WMD? You are lying if you said you were. No one knew other than Saddam. Even his own people believed he had WMD.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

So tell me, if Saddam had WMD's which could be assembled in less than an hour, what better time would there have been to deploy them - than when an enemy is preparing to invade him?

If he had, and he used it during the invasion, he would face unconventional responses. No one is stupid enough to challenge US on nuclear terms as a nation.

Have you noticed that even Adolf Hitler didn't use biological or chemical weapons on his enemies who could fight back?

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Outrageous, no US invasion would have been ordered had the US Government been convinced of the existence of Ba'athist WMD's.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Since when does being aware of an impending war make one a 'warmonger'?

Since you see war as inevitable and refuse to give peace a chance.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Ah yes, this Fox News World outlook: The World hates America because they're powerful, and all Muslims are psychotic savages.

Actually it's not a Fox News outlook.

Here's an easy way to check.

Call for a "hate Bush, anti-war" demonstration in Santa Monica and see the response you get. Better yet, try this in Berlin, Paris, Madrid, Rome, Mexico City, and Buenos Aires.

Then, in the same cities, call for an anti-militant-islamist demonstration and see what you get.

Originally Posted by gunnut

Here's an easy way to check.

Call for a "hate Bush, anti-war" demonstration in Santa Monica and see the response you get. Better yet, try this in Berlin, Paris, Madrid, Rome, Mexico City, and Buenos Aires.

Then, in the same cities, call for an anti-militant-islamist demonstration and see what you get.

Oop, that's a keeper.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

They have a right to become a large crater in the middle of the ME if they continue to defy the U.N. and NRC and threaten Israel. IMO if Sharone wasnt incapacitated this would have been brought to a conclusion by now.

If Sharon had not been incapacitated, then there would have been greater peace.

He was a shrewd politician who knew his onions.

Olmert is a chump!

Such an dope that he 'lost out' to the Hezbs when he should have been riding thorugh!

No the world hates America because it's safe to do so. Try hating Russia, you'll eat a radioactive sandwich or have your country flattened. Try hating Iran, they issue a fatwah. You're nice and snug and safe in your hate of the US.

Parihaka,

Just for discussion's sake.

And on what do you base this generalisation?

I rather be afraid of the US since she is the only country that has invaded another sovereign country on idiotic grounds of Freedom and Democracy!

What Freedom and what Democracy?

Who care about the US' idea of Freedom and Democracy? Patriot Act and frisking to your bare bones is Freedom? You call that Freedom or individual rights being enshrined? We don't have such fool laws where our gonads are to be exposed or touched every time we have to board an aircraft! And Islamic terrorism is a daily affair! We are NOT afraid of Islamic terrorists so much so that we lose our freedom of movement and life and live with a siege mentality! If we have to die, so be it. As Indians we will accept it but will not make our country a prison!

Radioactive sandwitch is for one man and not a nation. Not that it is what should be done. Count the dead in Iraq of Iraqis or wherever the US has intervened. Take Vietnam, Cambodia and on so many that it is difficult to remember.


So, dismount from the high horse.

See I am not anti US. As I have said Bush is the best thing that could happen to my country.

But I have always in my life stood for truth and justice. In an army also one has to be careful with his words, even there I have not done so. I may not have reached great heights, but even today, in my army, I am known to be a person who will fight for the truth.

I hate propaganda, fog, adroitness with words and anything that appears leading up the garden path.

If indeed, the War on Iraq is all about Freedom and Democracy let even a totally committed person like Bluesman, , who loves his country, be it right or wrong start a thread and lets see where it goes!

Even Americans are getting tired of this blind jingoism!

So, lets debate with reality and not what is a dream of pink clouds.

Of late, I am finding the level of tolerance to contrary views diminishing. That is not the WAB I know.

Originally Posted by Ray

So, dismount from the high horse.

Au contraire Ray, I am not in the slightest on a high horse.

What I believe is this.
In 2003 America invaded Iraq.
I believe that most of the world disagreed with this action and indeed so did I, because I still at that time had faith in the idea of the UN being able to acheive justice within Iraq.
Since that time I have become convinced that irrespective of the validity of the WMD claims; and as I have become aware of the true nature of Saddam Hussein and the Baath parties crimes against the peoples of Iraq, that the removal of this party and its leaders and their eventual execution has been a great service to the world.
I do not believe America is the centre of the world.
I do not believe that every discussion of every event in the world should involve some version of "Americans are bastards" comment, merely because an American is present.
I am bored with the "there weren't any WMD's" argument because it is irrelevant, it has been done to death: enormous amounts of bandwidth both on this board and virtually ever other one I have been on have been devoted to it and no further purpose is served by continually re-hashing the same old gnawed threads.
It is irrelevant because it is done: it makes no difference to what is occuring now, things that are of far greater importance to the world.

I am astonished that supposedly intelligent and rational people simply cannot pass up the chance even after four years to pass some slur or slight toward america no matter what the topic of discussion, and will defend the most heinous actions of some of the worlds most murderous thugs simply because 'America did something bad somewhere'.

Any other country in the world can do any damn thing it pleases and that's all right, because 'America insert sin here'.

France and Russia can sell weapons to both Iran and Iraq, can build nuclear reactors for any totalitarian homicidal regime you care to name, but that's all right because American CIA agents once farted in church or gave OBL's second cousin twice removed a million dollars.

The sheer hypocrisy in this belief, that only America can be bad, and everyone else in the world can do as they damn well please is astonishing to me, and, as I say, I'm frankly bored with it.

As for generalisations, well there are plenty of those to go around, I'm as capable of the next man of making them, and am better than most in making them as accurate as a generalisation can be.

I don't give a monkeys fart for 'freedom and democracy', the patriot act, or the state of Americans balls when going through customs, I'm interested in hearing from Iranians what they think of their government and how the British feel about the hostage situation.

I am interested in Bluesmans hot tub, Sheks superb analysis of various tactics, Dales and Xerxes science fiction knowledge, OoE's experiences of both a military and domestic life and the experiences and knowledge and abilities of all of the members in this board including yourself.

I do not believe that I have put forth any propoganda, fog, or jingoism: rather I believe my words have been plain and direct, to the point rather than up the garden path.

As to the level of contrary views, I have seen more contrary opinions about more subjects by more people on this board in the past six months than I have seen over the prior two years, simply because discussions are finally moving away from the constant 'America bad' arguments engendered by the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

Originally Posted by Ray

If Sharon had not been incapacitated, then there would have been greater peace.

He was a shrewd politician who knew his onions.

Olmert is a chump!

Such an dope that he 'lost out' to the Hezbs when he should have been riding thorugh!

Ray,Sir
Agreed. Its my belief he was the best thing for Israel at the time. His loss weakened their will per say. They will fight on but without his words and guidance they dont seem to be as powerful or driven. We can only hope they produce another leader that can fit the standard he set as you said of a shrewd politician. Iran truelly lucked out with him becoming incapacitated otherwise this whole thing would have never begun after the initial threats were made.

I'd said to myself i wasn't going to spend another minute on this Conservative idiot-ville, but i can't resist;

Originally Posted by Parihaka

Ahmadinejad: Wipe Israel off map



Al Jazeera

What was it about "Deliberate misquotes not cutting it" that you didn't understand? Hasn't this record long since broken? There are at least four different translations of this, yet you willingly return this one. Because it suits your Sin-City propaganda-riddled World Outlook? Yes, Ahmedinejad, AKA Dr. Evil.

Its funny then, although not surprising, that you're little excerpt deliberately leaves out a key word - "regime".

The full translation;

"They say it is not possible to have a world without the United States and Zionism. But you know that this is a possible goal and slogan. Let's take a step back. [[[We had a hostile regime in this country which was undemocratic, armed to the teeth and, with SAVAK, its security apparatus of SAVAK [the intelligence bureau of the Shah of Iran's government] watched everyone. An environment of terror existed.]]] When our dear Imam [Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the founder of the Iranian revolution] said that the regime must be removed, many of those who claimed to be politically well-informed said it was not possible. All the corrupt governments were in support of the regime when Imam Khomeini started his movement. [[[All the Western and Eastern countries supported the regime even after the massacre of September 7 [1978] ]]] and said the removal of the regime was not possible. But our people resisted and it is 27 years now that we have survived without a regime dependent on the United States. The tyranny of the East and the West over the world should have to end, but weak people who can see only what lies in front of them cannot believe this. Who would believe that one day we could witness the collapse of the Eastern Empire? But we could watch its fall in our lifetime. And it collapsed in a way that we have to refer to libraries because no trace of it is left. Imam [Khomeini] said Saddam must go and he said he would grow weaker than anyone could imagine. Now you see the man who spoke with such arrogance ten years ago that one would have thought he was immortal, is being tried in his own country in handcuffs and shackles [[[by those who he believed supported him and with whose backing he committed his crimes]]]. Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime [Israel] has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world."

President Ahmedinejad was calling for the fall of a regime, much like the fall of the USSR.

Now, aside from that - its funny that you should outright ignore atomic sabre-rattling from supremacist Israel, who so happened to be equipped (unlike incapable Iran). Perhaps thats because Australia conservatives have their heads so far up American conservatives asses - whose heads are already up the ass of all things Israeli - all you can see is seven shades of ****.

Iraq, Lebanon and Israel.

Iran has invaded Israel, Lebanon and Iraq - and at least one of these in the past five years, too? Please do elaborate, just how did i miss this one?

No the world hates America because it's safe to do so. Try hating Russia, you'll eat a radioactive sandwich or have your country flattened. Try hating Iran, they issue a fatwah. You're nice and snug and safe in your hate of the US.

Uh, no. The World hates America because of their role in the deaths of 700,000 people since 2003. No, i won't try hating Russia. Why are changing the subject to Russia?

Originally Posted by gunnut

You said America is like a kid. I say we are not like a kid, and provided supporting evidence. You say my statement and supporting evidence is a "thigh slapper." Having longest experience is irrelevant. OK what is relevant? You said intentions. OK, who in the last month, as the front man of a nation, called for wiping another nation off the map? It ain't Bush. It ain't Blair. It ain't even Putin. It was A-jad. I cannot read minds. He said something as a authoritative figure of a nation so we have to take his words at face value.

1) The statement was a deliberate misquote, as i have mentioned.
2) In the last Month? What, did the Delorean take us back to '05?
3) Both Bush and Blair have been showing a pure form of aggression for Months on end now.

Not at all. Iraq defied UN resolutions, more than one...17 to be exact.

But here is your quote, the one i was referring to. Lets not change the subject from World Trade Centres to UN resolutions to suit ourselves;

"You would be if we bombed your nation, whatever it may be, and destroyed your most important buildings."

No one said that.

"Frontpage Interview’s guest today is Stephen F. Hayes, the staff writer at The Weekly Standard whose recent article, Case Closed, reported on the U.S. government's secret memo detailing the links between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden."

The Al-Qaeda/Saddam Link

Also, are you denying that your Government initially did not at least insinuate that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11? (I really don't have time to go rooting through Yahoo! here).

I have never heard of the 45 min thing. But we know Iraq doesn't have WMD because we went in there to take a look. Were you 100% certain in 2002 that Saddam didn't have WMD? You are lying if you said you were. No one knew other than Saddam. Even his own people believed he had WMD.

Are you being sarcastic? You didn't know he had them, but you went "in there to take a look" anyway? Thats it? Thats your excuse? We're talking about possible Weapons of mass destruction. Not even America bull-heads into a Country where there is even a remote chance of them being armed with such weapons. Even if i were to ignore that, your Government said it was positive of the fact.

If he had, and he used it during the invasion, he would face unconventional responses. No one is stupid enough to challenge US on nuclear terms as a nation.

What has this got to do with anything?

Have you noticed that even Adolf Hitler didn't use biological or chemical weapons on his enemies who could fight back?

Which biological and chemical weapons was Hitler in possesion of? And who did he refrain from using them on in which theatre?

Hitler was hardly a military strategic genious. It could be argued it was his blunders alone that lost him the war. Converting the ME-262 to a bomber, for one.

Since you see war as inevitable and refuse to give peace a chance.

America is the Country pushing for military action. America is the only Country to average a major conflict every 20-odd years.

Here's an easy way to check.

Call for a "hate Bush, anti-war" demonstration in Santa Monica and see the response you get. Better yet, try this in Berlin, Paris, Madrid, Rome, Mexico City, and Buenos Aires.

Then, in the same cities, call for an anti-militant-islamist demonstration and see what you get.

A poor comparison. This is like saying go into Berlin, in 1943, and call for a pro Stalin parade - and see what sort of parade you get. Then go into Berlin again in 1943 and demand a pro-Churchill parade... and see what sort of result you get.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

I'd said to myself i wasn't going to spend another minute on this Conservative idiot-ville, but i can't resist;

Now we're resorting to name calling? You just lost whatever little credibility you had.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Now, aside from that - its funny that you should outright ignore atomic sabre-rattling from supremacist Israel, who so happened to be equipped (unlike incapable Iran). Perhaps thats because Australia conservatives have their heads so far up American conservatives asses - whose heads are already up the ass of all things Israeli - all you can see is seven shades of ****.

Israel engaged in atomic saber rattling and they are some kind of supremacist? Please elaborate.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Iran has invaded Israel, Lebanon and Iraq - and at least one of these in the past five years, too? Please do elaborate, just how did i miss this one?

Iran funds the Hezbollah which operates in Iraq and Lebanon and openly attacks all 3 nations.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Uh, no. The World hates America because of their role in the deaths of 700,000 people since 2003. No, i won't try hating Russia. Why are changing the subject to Russia?

700,000? In 4 years? That comes out to be 175,000 per year, 480 per day. I don't see this kind of report every day, not even from staunch anti-Bush media like the NY Times or the LA Times. Al Jazeera doesn't make this kind of claim. Perhaps the US is engaged in killing anti-muslim conservatives around the world so these anti-American news outlets don't report that. Wait...Fox News doesn't have this number either.

Where did you come up with this number?

Originally Posted by Jordan88

1) The statement was a deliberate misquote, as i have mentioned.
2) In the last Month? What, did the Delorean take us back to '05?
3) Both Bush and Blair have been showing a pure form of aggression for Months on end now.

Statement by A-jad was taken from anti-Bush news organization like NY Times and MSNBC, not to mention pro-American Fox News. I take that to be fact when news outlets from both the right and the left say the same thing. It's not my job to personally ask A-jad on what he said.

Bush and Blair showing aggression? Bush hasn't invaded another country, has he? Blair stressed time and again to let diplomacy work its course during the kidnapping of his countrymen by Iran is Aggression? Wow, that's a new one.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

But here is your quote, the one i was referring to. Lets not change the subject from World Trade Centres to UN resolutions to suit ourselves;

"You would be if we bombed your nation, whatever it may be, and destroyed your most important buildings."

Yes. And?

Originally Posted by Jordan88

"Frontpage Interview’s guest today is Stephen F. Hayes, the staff writer at The Weekly Standard whose recent article, Case Closed, reported on the U.S. government's secret memo detailing the links between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden."

The Al-Qaeda/Saddam Link

Also, are you denying that your Government initially did not at least insinuate that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11? (I really don't have time to go rooting through Yahoo! here).

Iraq had connection to Al Queda, as reported by CNN, even before 9-11.
CNN - Bin Laden reportedly leaves Afghanistan, whereabouts unknown - February 13, 1999

This was during Clinton presidency, hardly the most warlike president, and infinitely more intelligent than Bush as believed by the left.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Are you being sarcastic? You didn't know he had them, but you went "in there to take a look" anyway? Thats it? Thats your excuse? We're talking about possible Weapons of mass destruction. Not even America bull-heads into a Country where there is even a remote chance of them being armed with such weapons. Even if i were to ignore that, your Government said it was positive of the fact.

Not being sarcastic at all.

Why do you think our troops were prepared with a multitude of vaccinations and constantly drilled to don chemical suits?

We would rather have him use chemical weapons at our soldiers who are trained to deal with them than to have him hand this stuff to some terrorists and gas our people in downtown San Francisco....well, maybe that would be an improvement, but that's just my opinion.

CNN - Clinton: Iraq has abused its last chance - December 16, 1998

And this is Clinton telling us Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was prepared to use them, even before 9-11 when we had no real beef against him.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

What has this got to do with anything?

That has everything to do with him not using chemical weapons on the battlefield. We know for a fact he gassed the Kurds, the Shiites, and the Iranians. None of these people had the capacity to retaliate with enough brute force. We have that brute force. It's called "deterant." It worked against the Soviets during 50 years of cold war. They knew we can inflict enough pain if they use theirs, and we knew they can seriously hurt us if we use ours. So no one used any unconventional weapons on each other during the cold war. What we had were a series of proxy wars.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Which biological and chemical weapons was Hitler in possesion of? And who did he refrain from using them on in which theatre?

What did Hitler use to gas the Jews in his death camps? I'm not quite sure of. Laughing gas, perhaps...

See, that was a sarcasm.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

Hitler was hardly a military strategic genious. It could be argued it was his blunders alone that lost him the war. Converting the ME-262 to a bomber, for one.

We are in complete agreement here.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

America is the Country pushing for military action. America is the only Country to average a major conflict every 20-odd years.

Oh I don't know about that. It depends on your definition of "major."

The Colonel and Major Shek can fill you in on this topic far better.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

A poor comparison. This is like saying go into Berlin, in 1943, and call for a pro Stalin parade - and see what sort of parade you get. Then go into Berlin again in 1943 and demand a pro-Churchill parade... and see what sort of result you get.

Poor comparison indeed.

Stalin and Churchill were on the same side in 1943.

Bush and the islamists are not on the same side in 2007.

Originally Posted by Jordan88

I'd said to myself i wasn't going to spend another minute on this Conservative idiot-ville, but i can't resist;

TRY, can't you? I mean REALLY try. You CAN resist.

I'll be pullin' for ya, kid; best of luck.

Jordan88,

This is NOT a conservative idiotville.

There are many intellectual endowed people too who inhabit this space!

Try them!

Parihaka, Dreadnought and others,

I agree with what you have stated with reservations.

But all the same, the US foreign policy and waging war or staging 'revolutions' or provocating others at a drop of a hat, has made this world a huge clusterf and a dangerous place to live in!

If only some had brains to do the same thing with some elan!

Brains apparently seems to be at a premium amongst some!

Parihaka,

I am not concerned whether you care a monkey's fart or not.

Not because I don't care for what you have to say.

It is because I have not had the unique expertise of having smelt a variety of monkey's fart as you!

I give way to your expertise this this rather specialised field of activity!