15 UK sailors captured at gunpoint

**Officer of Engineers** · 28 Mar 07,, 18:03

Originally Posted by Garry

Remember last time Israel has ruinned a lot.... and go none of his soldiers back. This will not work but just show how helpless you are....

That was not a rescue mission. They never went after those two. It was an search-and-destroy excuse that backfired very, very badly.

**Garry** · 28 Mar 07,, 18:04

Originally Posted by YellowFever

Dude, if you hate the Mullahs and what it's done to your beloved Iran, why the hell are you supporting everything that Iran does?

I have two problems with your, "I am an Iranian, it is my duty to protect Iran the best way I can". sentence.

1) The way you're acting on this board is not helping your country at all. You should be the first one to support regime change if you really feel that much hatred towards the Mullahs.

2) You're in Canada now. And it seems like you and your family plans to stay.
Isn't it your duty to protect Canada the best way you can instead of defending a corrupt regime half a world away? A government that you say you hate? I know you don't support the Mullahs but sometimes, in your posts, you sound like you do.

Probably if you try to see the world as it is not Black and White and give up stupid notions of currpted regins, axes of evil, war on terror and other most stupid notions which were so successfully brainwashed from mass media you would understand him much more....

**Garry** · 28 Mar 07,, 18:06

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

That was not a rescue mission. They never went after those two. It was an search-and-destroy excuse that backfired very, very badly.

Sir, I doubt that they would have avoided a rescue mission if they felt that they could do it successfully. In my mind it would be no easier here

**Garry** · 28 Mar 07,, 18:10

Originally Posted by smilingassassin

Just look at the U.S., durring their civil war they were very much a nation torn apart, yet after all that death and distruction they changed for the better. If Iran is truely to become the nation she deserves to become Iranians need to stand up (and die if need be) to make it a better country.

It takes action and sadly given all the current events that action is needed now more than ever if Iran is to survive with its dignity intact.

Hei! Wake up! come back to real world... Why would you think that Iranians would want to overthrough their government? Do you really expect xerxs to go on and start a revolutionary movement?!?!? For democracy?!?!?

**Garry** · 28 Mar 07,, 18:16

Originally Posted by Bluesman

Or are you talking out your ass, you jumped-up arrogant know-it-all lay-strategist with a 1:300,00-scale globe and a whoooole bunch of books on geo-politics and strategy that you've no doubt read cover-to-cover (TWICE!), whilst pursuing that college degree in international relations from the advanced program at Fred's Collidge of Smart-Guy Stuff and Bait Shop?

well. Most probably reading books on geo-politics and strategy would not help you gain better understanding of the world beyond defence industry. So don't waste time on educating yourself.

My proposal. Lets populate whole US government with people of Mr Bush level of knowledge and see how it works...

**Officer of Engineers** · 28 Mar 07,, 18:22

Originally Posted by Garry

Sir, I doubt that they would have avoided a rescue mission if they felt that they could do it successfully. In my mind it would be no easier here

To do it the way the Israelis did it with the Hezbollah? No, it would be a disaster but it can be done. The Israelis did it with Entebee.

**Officer of Engineers** · 28 Mar 07,, 18:32

Originally Posted by Garry

well. Most probably reading books on geo-politics and strategy would not help you gain better understanding of the world beyond defence industry. So don't waste time on educating yourself.

In the Master-Sergeant's case, no it would not help one bit. I don't want to speak on the Master-Sergeant's behalf but he deals with real time intel and real time decisions. He does not have time and luxury of pouring through documents years and decades after the fact.

More importantly, his evaluations have consequences, dealing with life and death issues, and more importantly than that, he accepts complete responsibility for his evals. Bad guys die when he evals right. Good guys die when he evals wrong.

That is not the same world Xerxes live in when he tries to bring his strategic education to this table.

**Garry** · 28 Mar 07,, 18:33

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

To do it the way the Israelis did it with the Hezbollah? No, it would be a disaster but it can be done. The Israelis did it with Entebee.

Sir, I know that you have seen combat. Do you really think that those sailors can be released by a special operation on Iranian territory? I mean I doubt that, but I have little idea of what is actually possible and what is not by a spec. forces and would be interested to your oppinion here

**Officer of Engineers** · 28 Mar 07,, 18:42

Originally Posted by Garry

Do you really think that those sailors can be released by a special operation on Iranian territory?

It all depends on where and how they're being held. For instance, during the EP-3 incident, because of the isolated nature of the Chinese base where the Americans were being held. I actually thought a rescue was possible ... and so did the Chinese who erected barriers on possible LZs but they could not barricade all of them since that would curtail their own air operations.

Currently, I don't have the layout of where the Brits are being held, so I cannot do a proper eval.

**Garry** · 28 Mar 07,, 19:08

Originally Posted by jeffpayne56

Fire a trident or 2 with a dummy warhead, let israel loose on iran and then say the 3rd Trident will give them all a nice suntan and turn the sand to glass, might just work, might just piss off a few other countries and make them take notice 15 hostages or 15000 hostages make no difference, we must act hard now before it becomes 15000

what differs you from Iranian A-jad with his dream of sending few bombs to Israel and kill everybody there - kids, women, old people.... There was another guy whoes criminal deeds A-jan does not addmit - Hitler... he also liked this kind of actions.

Man, I hate being rude. But please SHUT the **** up with such a NAZZI oppinions

**Garry** · 28 Mar 07,, 19:13

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

In the Master-Sergeant's case, no it would not help one bit. I don't want to speak on the Master-Sergeant's behalf but he deals with real time intel and real time decisions. He does not have time and luxury of pouring through documents years and decades after the fact.

More importantly, his evaluations have consequences, dealing with life and death issues, and more importantly than that, he accepts complete responsibility for his evals. Bad guys die when he evals right. Good guys die when he evals wrong.

That is not the same world Xerxes live in when he tries to bring his strategic education to this table.

Sir, I agree that people have their scope.... same as I do mine in field of finance. So he might be best man on the field to make urgent and important decisions how to save his people and defeat enemy. But once it went beyond the battle field.... Luckilly Master-Segeant level of people are not in charge of a serious issues. I guess that Chaves is a good example what can happens when somebody with such level of sophistication comes to pwer.

**Bluesman** · 28 Mar 07,, 19:48

Steyn on the Iran 15:

This hostage business is going very badly for Britain. Daniel Hannan, a Member of the European Parliament – or (as those of us who believe in representative government say) European "parliament" – picks up an old theme of mine – that Iran disdains one of the basic qualifications to be recognized as a functioning state. Article 1(d) of the 1933 Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States:

The capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

How many times does the Islamic Republic have to (a) seize sovereign territory (the US embassy in Teheran); (b) order mob hits on foreign nationals (Salman Rushdie and his publishers); (c) perpetrate acts of state terrorism against citizens of countries with which it has no grievance whatsoever (the Buenos Aires community center bombing)? Its behavior has been consistent for three decades, yet, this time round as last time round, the British government calls in the Iranian ambassador and gives him a stern talking to, as if he were the emissary of Poland or India or any other civilized state.

I respect my friend David Frum’s views expressed elsewhere on this site, but I think he’s wrong: The softly-softly approach will not bring the European Union on side. By according Iran the appearance of a negotiated resolution to this kidnapping, you only reward them and embolden others. To treat an act of war as an unfortunate blip in an otherwise smooth relationship sends a message not just to Iran but around the world.

By the way, the rules of engagement that require Royal Navy vessels in the Iraq theater to patrol hostile waters as if they’re running a pleasure cruise to the Channel Islands is what led to this situation in the first place. When the Argies seized the Falklands without a shot being fired, Lord Carrington resigned as Foreign Secretary because he felt there had been a British humiliation for which his department was responsible. The British Defence Secretary, Des Browne, should do likewise.

**gunnut** · 28 Mar 07,, 19:56

Originally Posted by Garry

My proposal. Lets populate whole US government with people of Mr Bush level of knowledge and see how it works...

Actually Iraq would be much better if we did that. Leftist news organization and socialist democrats won't be cheering the enemy on and demoralizing our own population on a daily basis. Real world difference would probably be minimal, but psychologically the nation will be united behind our troops 100%.

It's a shame we have people in this country who put their political ideology and personal vendetta above what's good for the nation and good for the troops.

**glyn** · 28 Mar 07,, 20:00

By the way, the rules of engagement that require Royal Navy vessels in the Iraq theater to patrol hostile waters as if they’re running a pleasure cruise to the Channel Islands is what led to this situation in the first place. When the Argies seized the Falklands without a shot being fired, Lord Carrington resigned as Foreign Secretary because he felt there had been a British humiliation for which his department was responsible. The British Defence Secretary, Des Browne, should do likewise.

I'm afraid that Cabinet members of this INglorious government are most unlikely to do the decent thing and resign. Lord Carrington was a gentleman of the old school. Comrade Browne never was.

**Garry** · 28 Mar 07,, 20:04

Originally Posted by gunnut

Actually Iraq would be much better if we did that. Leftist news organization and socialist democrats won't be cheering the enemy on and demoralizing our own population on a daily basis. Real world difference would probably be minimal, but psychologically the nation will be united behind our troops 100%.

It's a shame we have people in this country who put their political ideology and personal vendetta above what's good for the nation and good for the troops.

Well. Probably you still think that Iraq can be made democratic and peaceful country with a time less than a decade and few thousand US troops + few tens of thousand Iraqies?

The guys like bush who without proper intellectual capabilities are given to make big decisions usually see things simplistically like - we come and they would meet us with flower cause we liberate them from dictator....

I respect your millitary views but lets wake up - no words of "thank you was told" to you for liberating country from this butcher Saddam.... No flowers... no crowds yelling USA.... USA.... USA.... Liberators.... Didn't you ask yourself why? Bush made A LOT of dammage to USA and country will pay for this long after he is gone