America will lose the war in Iraq!

**~~lulldapull~~** · 04 Nov 04,, 18:56

A very blunt but honest WWF style smack down for our budding Neocons of this forum. Have a good read boys, and knob each other silly after it!

America will lose the war in Iraq

By Dr. Frank Deliu, J.D.

02/17/04: (YellowTimes.org) – Now that is a bold claim to make, considering America's overwhelming military victory that took about less than a month.

However, one must remember that wars are ultimately a tool of politics, a way to get your opponent to agree with your point of view (albeit a nasty one that should be used as a last resort).

Bearing that in mind, wars that have been militarily "won" have ultimately been considered "losses" due to their failure to achieve their political objectives.

An example of this anomaly is Vietnam. If you look back at the casualty figures for the U.S. war there you will see that for every American that died at least 20 times that many North Vietnamese died. In theory, had the war gone on another x number of years America would have won by attrition.

However, that is exactly why the war was a failure, and ultimately a defeat. Its political objectives of pacification, reunification and the like never caught on, so to speak.

Thus, the resistance continued, and continued, and continued until finally the will of the Viet Cong was stronger than the will of the American public. Then came the withdrawal.

The same will happen in Iraq and the war will have been a defeat for the Americans. A review of the four major pre-war objectives will evince this.

One goal of the war was to prevent a despotic dictator/regime from maintaining its WMDs. Based on present evidence this was an impossible goal, because the dictator/regime in question did not in fact have WMDs. Moreover, the credibility of America has been shattered as this becomes plain to the rest of the world (and the millions of pre-war protestors, Hans Blix, Scott Ritter and the others who predicted no WMDs would be found).

Another stated goal of the war was to prevent Iraq from working with terrorist organizations like al-Qaeda. Considering the amount of attacks being launched against U.S.-led coalition troops, the war actually increased terrorism in Iraq.

Yet another purpose of the war was to democratize Iraq and make it a model for the Arab world, an ambitious plot that would have made T.E. Lawrence envious. Ignoring America's lack of credentials in this arena (less than 50 percent voter turnout in the Republic ranks the United States #139 in the world in this category), the plan has now shifted into not allowing direct elections but instead forcing a Caucus Electoral College System on the Iraqi people (and we know how well that worked in America in 2000). Another point worth making is that Iraq is in real danger of breaking up into a civil war, again another possible opposite effect.

The final "official" goal of the war was to liberate the Iraqi people from Saddam and his sycophants. In this regard, the Bush administration cites palaces contrasted with torture cells and mass graves to show the evil of the former regime, as if someone had even questioned this. So whilst it is true that the Iraqi people are not subject to such arbitrary and capricious punishment anymore, what they are instead subjected to are bombings, kidnappings, unemployment, etc. Before the government was killing and starving them, now it is more random, coming from all directions.

Now we get into a few of the "unofficial" motives for the war and these are where the impending departure from Iraq really hurts America most (as the non-accomplishment of the official reasons essentially only hurts the Iraqi people).

The most obvious nefarious aim of the war was oil, as the millions of anti-war protestors highlighted with varying levels of ingenuity. With an unstable theocracy in Saudi Arabia, Iraq would make a good backup for the #1 consumer of oil in the world. However, should the U.S. pullout without having installed a puppet to protect American interests (and it appears the Shi'a will not stand for a puppet and they have a track record of having overthrown the Shah in Iran), then this silent purpose of the war will go unmet as well.

Another unnamed reason for the war was to re-shape the Middle East using Iraq as a model. The Kurds are interested in their own state, or a federation with autonomy for them at worst. The Shiites want direct elections that will virtually assure their ascension to power. The Sunnis want a return to the good ole' days of Saddam when they ruled and prospered. Thus, the only likely outcomes are a civil war or breakup of the country. If this is the plan for a new Middle East, then the problems fomenting in that region that are hurting Western interests are only in their infancy.

One other plausible reason for the war was that the American hyper-power needed to throw its muscle around and a weakened Iraq (by over a decade of sanctions) would be just the place to do so with minimum casualties. By any account, the resistance has been stronger than expected and proven itself adept at fighting the Americans in a guerilla war. Should America leave Iraq having failed in most or all of the patent and latent purposes of war, then the fundamentalist Islamic and Pan-Arabic movement will only grow bolder at having helped send home another empire bloody.

Conspiracy theorists can put forth errata on the other masked reasons for war (government contracts, etc.). I tried to focus on the generally consensus of the obvious hidden reasons.

Perhaps things will change and all the neo-con predictions about WMDs, terrorist links, flowers, candies and hugs for the "coalition," democracy, and freedom will come true; and maybe the industrial war machine and American resolve will still win the day. Nevertheless, judging from the past 10 months, the downward spiral is the trend.

**Ray** · 10 Nov 04,, 05:52

IMHO, I wonder if anyone can win this or any other assymetrical war where the adversary is numbed from reason because of religious tenets assisted by a misplaced mindset of being a deprived lot and a war being waged against them by the Great White Satan and other infidels.

The European experiment was not in the heartland of Islam. Iraq is, being in the Middle East, from where it all started.

The hornet in his nest has been stirred!

**~~lulldapull~~** · 12 Nov 04,, 19:46

Originally Posted by Ray

IMHO, I wonder if anyone can win this or any other assymetrical war where the adversary is numbed from reason because of religious tenets assisted by a misplaced mindset of being a deprived lot and a war being waged against them by the Great White Satan and other infidels.

The European experiment was not in the heartland of Islam. Iraq is, being in the Middle East, from where it all started.

The hornet in his nest has been stirred!

its a matter of time Ray! the insurgencies are gaining some serious momentum on a daily basis! most of these insurgents 'left town' months before this thing was being planned, thanks to usual incompetent buffons announcing it to the terrorists that we are coming!!

This war is becoming a joke! These insurgents and terrorists will resurface somewhere else and start the same shiit all over again.

Its still not too late for Bush and Blair to apologize to all of us, gather up his crap, dust his sorry ass and beat the street. if he doesn't then 10 years down the road we'll be staring at the same cauldron........

P.S. In this stupid Falluja offensive Illinois has so far lost 5 out of the twenty five or so 18-20 year olds who hav died!! Perhaps Illinois and al the Blue states should pull out of this stupidity, and let the less fortunate and less bright amongst us run the gauntlet.

**Julie** · 12 Nov 04,, 20:09

One good thing, if you can call it good, is that now the Republicans will take 100% full responsibility for all decision-making the next four years since there is now a Republican majority doing the voting on issues. No more blaming the Democrats for their "lost" agendas.

**~~lulldapull~~** · 12 Nov 04,, 20:37

Originally Posted by Julie

One good thing, if you can call it good, is that now the Republicans will take 100% full responsibility for all decision-making the next four years since there is now a Republican majority doing the voting on issues. No more blaming the Democrats for their "lost" agendas.

Right on! We don't want any part of this war in Eye Raaq!

Now it really makes you wonder that how much calmer it was under that tyrant Saddam, than it is now! Jeeeeeeeez! Talk about total chaos!

you attack them in Falluja, they blow thelselves up in Baghdad!

Its no god-damn use at all! Let them all kill one another! We don't care!

**Bill** · 12 Nov 04,, 21:26

"One good thing, if you can call it good, is that now the Republicans will take 100% full responsibility for all decision-making the next four years since there is now a Republican majority doing the voting on issues. No more blaming the Democrats for their "lost" agendas."

Without 60 votes in the Senate the GOP can't break DNC fillibusters, so your assessment is incorrect.

And jeez Ludapull, could you pick a more fringe website than yellowpress.org???

LOL

The US will win the war, and will be largely withdrawn from Iraq within 12 months. There, i said it in writing, so it must be so......

**Fonnicker** · 12 Nov 04,, 21:45

The US will win the war, and will be largely withdrawn from Iraq within 12 months. There, i said it in writing, so it must be so......

Bold prediction.

I think it's interesting that we claim that the war is over. I would agree that the kind of war that we are good at is over. We are now fighting their kind of war. Did we really expect the insurgents to hang around in Fallujah and wait to be wiped out? You say "major offensive" and give them ample warning and they are outa there.

**Ray** · 13 Nov 04,, 02:35

The US can pull out even today.

But will that means they won the war?

It would mean that when the going got tough, it was just tough going and so they quit.

Winning the war would be cleaning up the mess and bringing back calm and the organised govt and other insitutions with only petty crimes being the manifestation of any violence and nothing more.

**~~lulldapull~~** · 13 Nov 04,, 04:04

Hey guys guess what! the 'Anonymous' guy ( Mike Scheuer) quit the CIA!

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A CIA analyst who wrote a book that criticized the U.S. war on terror has resigned from the spy agency after it effectively banned him from publicly discussing his views, his publicist said on Thursday.

Michael Scheuer, whose book "Imperial Hubris: Why the West Is Losing the War on Terror" was signed as "anonymous" and published this summer, will resign effective Friday after 22 years at the Central Intelligence Agency.

In a statement, Scheuer said the CIA had not forced him to resign, "but I have concluded that there has not been adequate national debate over the nature of the threat posed by Osama bin Laden and the forces he leads and inspires, and the nature and dimensions of intelligence reform needed to address that threat."

He intends to speak to the media over the next several weeks, including an appearance on the CBS show "60 Minutes" on Sunday.

Scheuer's statement said senior leadership had allowed the intelligence officers working against al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden to be made scapegoats for pre-Sept. 11 failures.

Scheuer was chief of the CIA Counterterrorist Center's unit which focused on bin Laden from 1996 to 1999 and remained a CIA analyst after that.

"The Atlantic Monthly" in its December issue published a letter sent by Scheuer to U.S. congressional intelligence committees that said the key pre-Sept. 11 intelligence failures were mainly the result of bad decisions by senior officials.

"While the 11 September attacks probably were unstoppable, it was decisions by human beings -- featuring arrogance, bad judgment, disdain for expertise, and bureaucratic cowardice -- that made sure the Intelligence Community did not operate optimally to defend America," Scheuer said in the letter.

In June, just before Scheuer's book was published, he did a series of media interviews, appearing on TV in silhouette and was identified in print as "Mike."

In the first week of August, CIA officials told him that he had to ask for permission in advance for media interviews and provide summaries of what would be discussed ahead of time, Scheuer's editor and publicist Christina Davidson said.

"They rejected every single request," she said. "It was effectively a ban."

His book said the United States was losing the war against terrorism and that sticking to current policies would only make its enemies in the Islamic world grow stronger.

The statement released by his publicist about Scheuer's resignation said that "after a cordial meeting with senior CIA officials on Tuesday, Scheuer decided that it would be in the best interests of the intelligence community and the country for him to resign in order to continue speaking publicly with regard to Osama Bin Laden, al Qaeda, and the 9-11 Commission Report." A CIA spokeswoman had no immediate comment.

Copyright © 2003 Reuters Limited.

**smilingassassin** · 13 Nov 04,, 08:39