Average Iraqi's life is worse now

**omon** · 04 Dec 06,, 17:03

The level of violence in Iraq is "much worse" than that of Lebanon's civil war, outgoing U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said in an interview aired Monday.

Speaking to the British Broadcasting Corp., Annan agreed that the average Iraqi's life is worse now than it was under Saddam Hussein and called the situation in the country "extremely dangerous."

"Given the level of violence, the level of killing and bitterness and the way that forces are arranged against each other, a few years ago, when we had the strife in Lebanon and other places, we called that a civil war; this is much worse," Annan said.

Last week, when asked by reporters whether the fighting in Iraq could be considered a civil war, Annan said "almost."

"I think given the developments on the ground, unless something is done drastically and urgently to arrest the deteriorating situation, we could be there. In fact we are almost there," he said last week.

In the BBC interview, Annan agreed when it was suggested that some Iraqis believe life is worse now than it was under Saddam Hussein's regime.

"I think they are right in the sense of the average Iraqi's life," Annan said. "If I were an average Iraqi obviously I would make the same comparison, that they had a dictator who was brutal but they had their streets, they could go out, their kids could go to school and come back home without a mother or father worrying, 'Am I going to see my child again?'

"And the Iraqi government has not been able to bring the violence under control. The society needs security and a secure environment for it to get on — without security not much can be done — not recovery or reconstruction."

He urged the international community to help rebuild the country, saying he was not sure Iraq could do it on its own.

Annan's term as secretary-general ends Dec. 31.

**~~Falcon325~~** · 04 Dec 06,, 20:37

What about the Individual Iraqi citizen are they exempt from taking responsibility for their own actions? if they know whats going on and are concerned about their family's safety how about them "getting their helmet on and get in the game" sitting in the cheap seats watching their country get blown apart isn't helping anything. the average citizen needs to pick a side and fight for his beliefs.. those who claim "innocence" there are nothing more than "pop up targets" for those who have chosen a side... "freedom isn't free" pick up a weapon and take a stand fight for what you believe in, if your not willing to do that, then you get EXACTLY what you deserve and have NO right to open your mouth

**Sombra** · 05 Dec 06,, 12:48

Originally Posted by Falcon325

What about the Individual Iraqi citizen are they exempt from taking responsibility for their own actions? if they know whats going on and are concerned about their family's safety how about them "getting their helmet on and get in the game" sitting in the cheap seats watching their country get blown apart isn't helping anything. the average citizen needs to pick a side and fight for his beliefs.. those who claim "innocence" there are nothing more than "pop up targets" for those who have chosen a side... "freedom isn't free" pick up a weapon and take a stand fight for what you believe in, if your not willing to do that, then you get EXACTLY what you deserve and have NO right to open your mouth

Right, invading a country as an "premetive" war , disbanding police, army and government . Leaving weapon dumps ungarded and failing to put up a working government or police whatever. But its the fault of the average people in Iraq.

Another cheap excuse for the failure of the after war plannning?

**~~Falcon325~~** · 05 Dec 06,, 13:43

Originally Posted by Sombra

Right, invading a country as an "premetive" war , disbanding police, army and government . Leaving weapon dumps ungarded and failing to put up a working government or police whatever. But its the fault of the average people in Iraq.

Another cheap excuse for the failure of the after war plannning?

OK we invaided as a premptive measure.........agreed............disbanded the corrupt police.....agreed.........what particular weapons dumps are you referring to? and what bearing does that have on the issue? failing to put up a working government? what, were we supposed to ship over a prepacked crate labeled "new iraqi government" and just add water and "presto" a new functioning government? Its the obligation of the people to stand up for themselves... and form their own government and comply with the laws it establishes not act like a bunch of phucking animals. those groups are so preoccupied with whos going to be on top at the end that they can't focus on the begining.. they've basically been handed and new start to live as free peacful people if they choose but,.. nope the choose to saw peoples heads off or torture those who are different then them as they jocky for position.. and the citizens of that country that stand by and watch it happen are just as bad as those doing it.......they need to stand up for what they KNOW is right......"risk death on your feet or face life on your knees"

**Sombra** · 05 Dec 06,, 14:30

Depends if you like to go "blue eyed and innocent " into such an adventure or with a plan. If you believe that people will clelbrate you as liberator ask yourself if you would welcome an international task force liberating you of president Bush. I think many muslim populations believe that Bush is a a bad guy

Lets compare it to Germany. You didnt go in here told us that we are a nice little guys seduced by an an evil dictator and please everyone feel free to keep a few guns at home.

No you established quite clearly who is in charge, kept the internal workings of the state intact (exchanged only the top dogs) and appointed a government (like you call prepacked and ready to ship ) Simply knowing who you want to work with in the future.

**~~Falcon325~~** · 05 Dec 06,, 16:37

Originally Posted by Sombra

Depends if you like to go "blue eyed and innocent " into such an adventure or with a plan. If you believe that people will clelbrate you as liberator ask yourself if you would welcome an international task force liberating you of president Bush. I think many muslim populations believe that Bush is a a bad guy

Lets compare it to Germany. You didnt go in here told us that we are a nice little guys seduced by an an evil dictator and please everyone feel free to keep a few guns at home.

No you established quite clearly who is in charge, kept the internal workings of the state intact (exchanged only the top dogs) and appointed a government (like you call prepacked and ready to ship ) Simply knowing who you want to work with in the future.

You are comparing TWO entirely seperate situations. the situations are very different in many respects but primarily the cultural, ethnic and religious, beliefs of the two nations In WW2 (ALL Christian) In Iraq 'the infidels" are "in our streets destroying everything we believe in" as opposed to Germany "we got our ass kicked now we have to listen to THESE guys instead of the nut we've been listening to. Also we made no secret that we were occupying a CONQUERED nation.... in Iraq the scenario was that of LIBERATION although I think it should have been treated as CONQUERED.... and as far as being treated like a liberator what about all those people running around beating the hell out of any Saddam image with their shoes??? thay had to be happy to see the nutjob get his ass kicked......but still those people could have acted like humans and worked with the Conquerer/Liberator and been better off ........you didn't see the germans forming radical groups sawing each others heads off and blowing up everything..........want treated like a person? ACT LIKE ONE

**gunnut** · 05 Dec 06,, 18:35

Originally Posted by omon

The level of violence in Iraq is "much worse" than that of Lebanon's civil war, outgoing U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said

I stopped reading there.

**astralis** · 05 Dec 06,, 18:40

falcon,

.but still those people could have acted like humans and worked with the Conquerer/Liberator and been better off

if most people in iraq didn't act like humans and more or less cooperate with the US...trust me, things would be a lot worse.

**~~Yirmeyahu~~** · 06 Dec 06,, 11:42

Falcon325

OK we invaided as a premptive measure.........agreed.

You'll note that Sombra put quotation marks around "preemptive". I presume that was for a reason. The invasion of Iraq was not "preemptive" war. A "preemptive" war is one waged against a nation posing an imminent threat.

One could argue that the war was "preventive", using a very loose definition, but even that is stretching it.

............disbanded the corrupt police.....agreed

You'll note that Sombra wasn't speaking of "corrupt" police, but of police in general. You'll also note that he included the army and government.

Disbanding the army led to many Sunnis joining the resistance.

what, were we supposed to ship over a prepacked crate labeled "new iraqi government" and just add water and "presto" a new functioning government? Its the obligation of the people to stand up for themselves... and form their own government and comply with the laws it establishes not act like a bunch of phucking animals.

We would do well to speak of our own obligations.

The US has an obligation to observe international law. Instead, it violated the most elementary principle of international law and waged a war of aggression, "the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole" against Iraq. Under the Geneva Conventions, the occupying power is responsible to ensure law and order. Failing to do so is a war crime, one of the cumulative evils of the supreme crime.

gunnut

I stopped reading there.

Why? Do you think the violence of Lebanon's "civil war" is much worse than that of Iraq's?

**gunnut** · 07 Dec 06,, 06:28

Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu

Why? Do you think the violence of Lebanon's "civil war" is much worse than that of Iraq's?

I hold Kofi Annan in contempt. He's a petty thief sitting in a high office. He should be tried for war crimes. I believe his words no more than I believe Adolf Hitler's words on Jews.

**Asim Aquil** · 07 Dec 06,, 08:51

I hear, the Americans there aren't to make the avg Iraqi's life better but are there "for the kill".

**Julie** · 07 Dec 06,, 15:26

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

I hear, the Americans there aren't to make the avg Iraqi's life better but are there "for the kill".

Then they can send our reconstruction money back to Washington.

**gunnut** · 07 Dec 06,, 22:30

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

I hear, the Americans there aren't to make the avg Iraqi's life better but are there "for the kill".

I hear lots of things also. Don't make them true.

I hear the muslim horde is taking over Europe.

I hear muslims treat their women as sub human.

I hear muslims are terrorists.

I hear muslim immigrants want to bring their culture over here and have no intention of assimilating.

**~~Yirmeyahu~~** · 08 Dec 06,, 11:59

gunnut

I hold Kofi Annan in contempt. He's a petty thief sitting in a high office. He should be tried for war crimes. I believe his words no more than I believe Adolf Hitler's words on Jews.

What has he stolen? What "war crimes" has he committed?

**zraver** · 08 Dec 06,, 17:39

Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu

Falcon325

You'll note that Sombra put quotation marks around "preemptive". I presume that was for a reason. The invasion of Iraq was not "preemptive" war. A "preemptive" war is one waged against a nation posing an imminent threat.

One could argue that the war was "preventive", using a very loose definition, but even that is stretching it.

You'll note that Sombra wasn't speaking of "corrupt" police, but of police in general. You'll also note that he included the army and government.

Disbanding the army led to many Sunnis joining the resistance.

We would do well to speak of our own obligations.

The US has an obligation to observe international law. Instead, it violated the most elementary principle of international law and waged a war of aggression, "the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole" against Iraq. Under the Geneva Conventions, the occupying power is responsible to ensure law and order. Failing to do so is a war crime, one of the cumulative evils of the supreme crime.

gunnut

Why? Do you think the violence of Lebanon's "civil war" is much worse than that of Iraq's?

I will point out that Iraq had signed a cease fire instrument and then proceeded ot engage in ove ra decade of defiance of the same document. In Hans Blix's report to the UNSC Iraq was found to be in mateiral breech in several areas including prohibeted weapons, compliance, open inspections and the location 1500 missing WMD warheads, and his current and active support of international terrorist groups.

Despite the attmept to paint the war as unathuorised the war was legal. Serious consqunces had bene threatened if iraq failed to comply fully with it's last chance. Russia, China, and France are not the worlds judges on what is moral and immoral. 50+ nations agreed with the US and UK that war was very clearly the next step and they committed troops to the coalition. This is more than double the number that helpe dout in 90-91.

The attmepts to block war by Russia, China, and France stem directly from their profiteering and arms sales to Iraq. They were owed 100 billion USD and Bush was advocatign an unjust debt doctrine to free iraq of this burden once Saddam was gone. France was also cognisant of the oil for food scandal and graft a tthe highest levles of the French goverment and any invasion would uncover those crimes. The 3 nations were motivated purely by money and greed.

While the US made many mistakes, the onous now rests on Iran who is fueling, arming, training, and funding the secterain violence in the country for its own ends. With 70-80 all the war deaths in iraq due to this ethinic cleansing Iran needs tob e held accountable. This shortsighted secterian strife is now threatening a wider regional war as Suadi Arabi is making noises about jumping into the mix to counter Iran.