How to avoid civil war in Iraq

S2 · 24 Oct 06,, 08:37

"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives." Abba Eban

I frankly have more of a base desire to simply tip apple carts all over the middle east. You know, upset the prevailing paradigm where it be found in literally whatever form-theological messianics, military presidents, semi-feudal leftovers, royal derivitives, and fascist "cults of personality". Then move on. What comes after is part of the process.

If it's civil war, so be it. Nobody should believe that Iraq has yet earned the right to nationhood. Where's the history to support this artificial construct, and why should it matter to those living in the cradle of civilization-Mesopotamia? One hundred years of various and dubious governance by the Ottomans, Brit surrogate royalty, petty despots, and Saddam!!

By what rallying cry will ALL Iraqis respond? It would seem that, like Yugoslavia, left to their own devices (no pun intended), the fracture lines boil to far smaller fragments. I'm not even certain that sectarian divisions are adequate any longer. Battles between sunni tribes and AQI coupled with clashes between Badr brigade and Mahdi army types might suggest that there's far more than simply religion. Instead, Iraq may have simply devolved to a society dominated by armed young men empowered and emboldened by the law of the jungle. There is no ideological backdrop. Just rationales to cloak petty lusts for power and avarice.

Until these fractious elements exhaust themselves or the public body takes up violent resistance against any proseletyzing force, this could and, perhaps, should go on indefinitely. If so, that's Iraq's business. Not ours. I embrace civil war as the clearest indication that no mandate to govern exists by ANY political entity within Iraq and await the more natural evolution that will rise from the impending violence. If it leads to partition by force or agreement, that'll be the best which Iraqis deserve under the circumstances. Should an ideal or vision arise that can mobilize the collective spirit of Iraqis, perhaps a nation can yet be created. Either way, our involvement is not only not required, but can actually impede this necessary process.

I've heard how we can't let the Iraqi government down and must stay to see our responsibility through. Not so. I'm no longer even certain that we can justify advising and logistically supporting Iraqi military and police. Increasingly, I can only wonder if we're not arming and training the various factions that will comprise the battle. We've met our responsibilities. Now it's time for Iraqis to meet THEIR responsibilities.

I believe that Winston Churchill once said that Americans will usually arrive at the correct solutions after having visited nearly every bad one. It falls in line with the above quote from Abba Eban. Perhaps Iraqis, exhausted of all selfish and irrationally grounded positions that lead to war unceasing will instead find common cause in peace. Certainly no force now exists that can act as a similar catalyst.

**Shek** · 24 Oct 06,, 12:43

Originally Posted by Julie

I'm talking about the Iraqi's have lost all hope and interest in the US. Hell, Dale, they only have electrical power for only two hours a day....and that's if they are lucky. Our passed bills include billions of reconstruction money.

Wrong again on the facts.

Originally Posted by Julie

Reconstruction efforts give Iraqi's encouragement and self-confidence in taking control of their country.

The money is also included in the military spending. LIke I said, what's going on with it?

Julie,

Go to USAID's website. Go to State's website. Go to the Iraq Index at Brookings. It'd take you five minutes to be completely up to date on how the money's being spent. We lost our window of opportunity in 2003 to make reconstruction earn a quick victory in winning the peace through failing to choose smart projects for the $$ and through having to fight red tape in order to get the money spent. Reconstruction is still necessary, but it doesn't have the same payoff when you're worried about ongoing violence.

**Bill** · 24 Oct 06,, 16:30

Originally Posted by S-2

I believe that Winston Churchill once said that Americans will usually arrive at the correct solutions after having visited nearly every bad one. It falls in line with the above quote from Abba Eban.

"The United States can always be counted on to do the right thing, after it's exhausted every other option."
~Winston Churchill

**Julie** · 24 Oct 06,, 16:51

Originally Posted by shek

Julie,

Go to USAID's website. Go to State's website. Go to the Iraq Index at Brookings. It'd take you five minutes to be completely up to date on how the money's being spent. We lost our window of opportunity in 2003 to make reconstruction earn a quick victory in winning the peace through failing to choose smart projects for the $$ and through having to fight red tape in order to get the money spent. Reconstruction is still necessary, but it doesn't have the same payoff when you're worried about ongoing violence.

Red tape....unemployment still 48% -- no change since invasion.

I guess reconstruction and employment go hand in hand.

The only statistics I seen that are up since the invasion are the insurgency and oil production.

S2 · 24 Oct 06,, 19:28

Thanks! Anything by Churchill is deserving of the exact quote and I'm worse for not doing so.

**Ray** · 24 Oct 06,, 19:59

Trial and error?

**Bill** · 24 Oct 06,, 20:00

Originally Posted by S-2

Thanks! Anything by Churchill is deserving of the exact quote and I'm worse for not doing so.

No problem sir, i already had that one memorized.

**Shek** · 24 Oct 06,, 21:50

Originally Posted by Julie

Red tape....unemployment still 48% -- no change since invasion.

I guess reconstruction and employment go hand in hand.

The only statistics I seen that are up since the invasion are the insurgency and oil production.

Red tape, like requiring the same amount of insurance on Iraqis that we do on Americans on projects where US government funds are spent. It took months to get that one fixed so sewer projects in Sadr City could go forward.

As far as other statistics, read closer, you could find some more, like # of cars, # of phone users, # of internet users, etc. While not a rosy overall picture, it is not the complete bah humbug picture you try to present. Redo. You get more than five minutes this time.