Thread: Who won it?

Looks like Israel lost it this time....
- PR war lost completelly
- Hez is functional and now considered victor
- Hez has got more supporters
- It would be politically hard to intervene back.....

Whole operation was a wrong move to initiate...... but then it was big mistake to stop it uncompleted.

Originally Posted by Garry

Looks like Israel lost it this time....
- PR war lost completelly
- Hez is functional and now considered victor
- Hez has got more supporters
- It would be politically hard to intervene back.....

Whole operation was a wrong move to initiate...... but then it was big mistake to stop it uncompleted.

Garry,
Im not sure which view you look at it in but Israel hasnt lost. For these reasons..

1) The gained a 19 mile buffer zone on their border with Lebannon.
2) The managed to destroy a large part of Hezbollah arms cache and quite a few supporters.
3) With others supporting Hezbollah (Iran & Syria) namely they have opened many peoples eyes as to who funds these terror regimes and the laws in which they wage conflict. Namely none they are terrorists pure and simple.

*Now the French which worded the cease fire order will have to support the U.N. with troops instead of words this time. So thats a win for coalition forces..They have to put their troops where their mouth is finally.

*Notice the U.S. opposed stopping Israel. They did so for a reason. To send Iran and Syria a message that supporting state within state terrorism will not continue and you can spend your money and arms supporting Hezbollah but it will only get destroyed and theirs not one thing you can do about it.

*France stepped in because of their own worries over their own muslims at home and that was exactly what the U.S. saw and went against them. Giving Israel more time to stick it to Hezbollah. Iran & Syria hated to watch this because their support for Hezbollah was being blown up on their very tv's while they watched.

*Israel has now forced Lebannons hand to disarm Hezbolla and the rest of the world is watching to see exactly what they will do as Israel will continue to take out Hezbollah while pulling back.

*Notice Iran, Hezbollah, Lebannon and Syria called for the cease fire to begin with.
I wouldnt wonder to tell you that Hezbollah got its asses handed to them and thats exactly why the above terrorist supportive nations called for it. Because if you notice it wasnt Israel that called for it. Israel took great pleasure in bombing Irans and Syria's money (missles arms and armor) all into millions of pieces and laughed as they did so.

* Notice also Iran and Syria called it a victory for Hezbollah. They have to. They wouldnt want their people to know how badly Hezbollah got creamed. This might start uprisings in their lands and god forbid democracy sprout from this. They cant have this their people must remain brainwashed drones to the religious radicals they call their governments. The false or doctore images on the news and the net support the fact that the propaganda machine was hard at work trying to bail out Hezbolla.

*Lebannon will now think twice before allowing Hezbollah to do anything on their soil after they foot the bill to "clean up" the rubble and the dead.

*Hezbollah now has U.N. forces between them and Israel so the Islamic nations propaganda machine will not work when you have actual witnesses as to who started what and where it came from and who is operating in south Lebannon.

So in all Hezbollah has lost not Israel. Israel did nothing but gain in this conflict. In short its Hezbollah, Iran and Syria that has lost and not only just "face"

Militarily, the Israelis won. They've got bruised, bloodied, embarrassed, extremely sloppy, and the results are damned ugly but they do own the battlefield. The problem was that the political objective of destroying the Hezbollah went out the window. Hezbollah's victory was that they were not knocked out cold and deliver some mind numbing blows of their own. They were neither isolated nor reduced militarily and they did withdraw in order.

In every other way that counts, ie the propaganda, Hezbollah won. There's no avoiding that. They're not the ones going home to lick their wounds. They're celebrating in the streets in Beiruit as well as Tehran and Dasmascus ... and Ridyah as well. Hezbollah did alot better than expected and Israel did alot worst than expected and no amount of reality checks is going to change that.

The down side to Hezbollah is that they think they now know how to fight Israel. For Israel, this is a wake up call, next time, they're coming out with both fists swinging instead of having one hand tied behind their backs,

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Militarily, the Israelis won. They've got bruised, bloodied, embarrassed, extremely sloppy, and the results are damned ugly but they do own the battlefield. The problem was that the political objective of destroying the Hezbollah went out the window. Hezbollah's victory was that they were not knocked out cold and deliver some mind numbing blows of their own. They were neither isolated nor reduced militarily and they did withdraw in order.

In every other way that counts, ie the propaganda, Hezbollah won. There's no avoiding that. They're not the ones going home to lick their wounds. They're celebrating in the streets in Beiruit as well as Tehran and Dasmascus ... and Ridyah as well. Hezbollah did alot better than expected and Israel did alot worst than expected and no amount of reality checks is going to change that.

The down side to Hezbollah is that they think they now know how to fight Israel. For Israel, this is a wake up call, next time, they're coming out with both fists swinging instead of having one hand tied behind their backs,

Question sir, Would you agree the Israel's held back due to American pressure? While Hezbollah was allowed to run free from Iran and Syria's leash?

I really think the Israelis fell into the trap of overconfidence in airpower. If the eval is correct (and I see no reason why to dispute it), Hezbollah was an Iranian division and the IsDF did not even mobilize their ground forces until way late into the game ... and these were not your ready-to-go forces but the reserves.

And from the videos, it would seemed that most fights were meeting engagements with tanks stumbling onto ATGM nests without the benefit of infantry. It was sloppy, as if they have not planned this out.

Hi Khan,

The rest is debatable but one thing is for certain: Lebanon definitely did not come out on the winning side.

In fact, Lebanon always will lose due to the fact that Israel's fortune depends upon Lebanon's misfortune.

Regards,

Willliam

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

I really think the Israelis fell into the trap of overconfidence in airpower. If the eval is correct (and I see no reason why to dispute it), Hezbollah was an Iranian division and the IsDF did not even mobilize their ground forces until way late into the game ... and these were not your ready-to-go forces but the reserves.

And from the videos, it would seemed that most fights were meeting engagements with tanks stumbling onto ATGM nests without the benefit of infantry. It was sloppy, as if they have not planned this out.

Colonel, the assessments I have seen agree with you completely.

One good thing though, there is no more ambiguity whatsoever regarding Hezbolllah and Iranian and Syrian involvement- Russian ATGM's with Syrian delivery markings were recovered intact, the Iranian anti-shipping missile that was used to attack the Israeli warship, etc.

It's now crystal clear to everyone that Hezbolllah is an Iranian/Syrian proxy army operating in Lebanon.

I think it's also clear already that Lebanon has no intention of disarming Hezbollah, regardless of what the cease-fire agreement says, as per public statememts made yesterday by the Lebanese Foreign Minister to one of the news wires.

I have exactly zero confidence in the so-called "peacekeeping force", that it will even get deployed at all.

IMO Israel really screwed the pooch in accepting the terms. It made heroes out of Hezbollah to the Arab world.

It was a huge PR victory for Hezbollah and Iran/Syria. The media just eats this stuff up, Reuters phony photos, etc.

This pic says it all...

OP-ED by a self proclaimed pro Israeli writer...

HEZBOLLAH 3, ISRAEL 0

By RALPH PETERS

August 17, 2006 -- ISRAEL'S rep for toughness in tatters. Hezbollah triumphant. Iran cockier than ever. Syria untouched. Lebanon's government crippled. An orgy of anti-Semitism in the global media. Anti-Americanism exploding among Iraqi Shi'as inspired by Hezbollah.

Thanks, Prime Minister Olmert. Great job, guy.

The debacle in Lebanon wasn't even a war. It was only round one of a war. And Israel's back in its corner, dazed and punch-drunk.

Israel got in a gut jab, but Hezbollah landed three ferocious haymakers:

* Despite the physical damage the Israeli Defense Forces inflicted, Hezbollah's terror-troops were still standing (and firing rockets) when the bell rang.

* At the strategic level, Hezbollah's masterful manipulation of the seduce-me-please media convinced the region's Shi'a and Sunni spectators alike that Hassan Nasrallah is the new Great Arab Hope. He's got a powerful Persian cheering section, too.

* While Israel couldn't plan or execute a winning campaign, it also failed to think beyond the inevitable cease-fire. But Hezbollah did. The terrorists had mapped out precisely what they had to do the moment the shooting stopped: Hand out Iranian money, promise they'll rebuild what Israel destroyed - and simply refuse to honor the terms of the U.N. resolution.

Israel couldn't wait to throw in the towel and start pulling out troops. Then Hezbollah's fighters emerged from the rubble of towns Israeli leaders lacked the courage to conquer - and the number of terror-soldiers who survived shocked the Israelis.

Politicians and generals everywhere, repeat after me: "Air power alone can't win wars; you can't defeat terror on the cheap with technology; and (in the timeless words of Nathan Bedford Forrest) War means fighting, and fighting means killing."

The U.N. resolution called for Hezbollah to disarm - a fantasy only a diplomat could believe. As soon as the refugees began flowing southward and packing the battlefield, Nasrallah told the international community to take a hike. He knows that U.N. peacekeepers won't try to disarm his forces - if they ever show up - and the Lebanese military not only won't try, but couldn't do it.

The world's response? The French (who talked so boldly) took a cold swig of Vichy water: Now they say they won't send in their peacekeepers until Hezbollah is completely disarmed - which isn't going to happen. And Lebanese leaders stated openly that not only wouldn't the Lebanese army attempt to take away the terrorists' weapons, it wouldn't even confiscate caches it stumbled on.

Sucker-punched (well, don't fight with your eyes closed), Israel's complaining to the ref. While staring around in bewilderment.

Want more good news? After finally calling our enemies by the accurate name of "Islamo-fascists," President Bush backtracked so fast the White House lawn was smoking. Then he declared that Israel had won.

That's about as credible as insisting the Titanic docked safe and sound.

And that ain't all, folks. If you're an Israel supporter - as I proudly admit to being - get ready for some tough love: Not only did Israel's abysmally incompetent government start a war impulsively and prosecute it half-heartedly, the country's military leadership failed, too. Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, who was going to destroy Hezbollah from the skies, reportedly put his main effort on the eve of war into selling off his stock holdings before his bombs could weigh down the market. Now that's insider trading!

But that was just one jerk-general dishonoring his uniform. The serious news is that the IDF's reserve forces were a shambles when they mobilized. Information from an inside source reveals that, when the reserves' warehouses and depots were opened, key stocks were missing - stolen.

What was gone? Fuel, weapons, ammunition, food, spare parts - all that a modern military needs to go to war. And I doubt it ended up in Iceland.

The IDF has great combat leaders and brave soldiers. But Hezbollah's boys proved tougher - and we can't pretty it up. The terrorists were willing - even eager - to die for their cause. Israeli leaders dreaded friendly casualties. And IDF troops - except in elite units - lacked the will to close with the enemy and defeat him at close quarters.

Israel tried to fight humanely. Hezbollah was out to win at any cost. The result was inevitable.

On the ground in southern Lebanon, the IDF was able to muster a ten-to-one advantage around contested villages. But its leaders lacked the guts to do what needed to be done. And Hezbollah's frontline fighters survived.

You can't win if you won't fight.

The IDF needs pervasive reform. Still structured to defeat the conventional militaries of Syria and Egypt, it faced an enemy tailored specifically to take on the IDF. Historical reputation isn't enough - the IDF must rebuild itself to take on post-modern threats. As one senior American general put it, "The IDF's been living on fumes since 1967."

Hezbollah cleared the air.

All this is heartbreaking. I wish it were otherwise. I wish I could back up our president's surreal claim that Israel won. I wish Israel had won. I wish it had the leadership the Israeli people deserve.

And that's what's tragic: Israel's politicians turned out to be even more profoundly out of touch with their people than the pols in Washington. Israelis were willing to fight. They wanted to win. The rank and file of the IDF would have done what needed to be done. And their leaders failed them.

There will be consequences. Iran's convinced it's on a winning course. Syria got away with murder (literally). And Hezbollah will come back more determined than ever.

Oh, I almost forgot those two IDF soldiers whose kidnapping triggered all this. But I can be forgiven, since Israel's leaders forgot about them long before I did: The U.N. resolution Olmert welcomed makes no binding and immediate demand for their return.

And the world is going to let Iran build nuclear weapons.

Get ready for Round Two.

Ralph Peters' new book is "Never Quit the Fight."

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/op...lph_peters.htm

BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) - A Lebanese general was ordered arrested Wednesday for appearing in a videotape drinking tea with Israeli soldiers who had occupied his south Lebanon barracks during their incursion of the country.

Brig. Adnan Daoud was summoned and ordered held for questioning, Interior Minister Ahmed Fatfat said in a statement. Daoud is commanding officer of the 1,000-strong joint police-army force that had positions in southern Lebanon and was based in Marjayoun.

Israeli troops seized the barracks there last week and held him and 350 soldiers for a day before allowing them to leave the occupied zone. The Lebanese garrison, which is lightly armed, did not resist the Israeli force which moved in armor into the base.

In the videotape, aired on Israeli television and carried by a Lebanese TV station Wednesday, Daoud was shown having tea with smiling Israeli soldiers and walking with them in the base courtyard.

Lebanon is in a state of war with Israel, although it signed an armistice in 1949. To this day, Lebanon does not recognize the State of Israel.

Lebanese law forbids any dealings with Israel. A Lebanese citizen faces arrest and prosecution for having such dealings. In 2000, after Israel withdrew its army from southern Lebanon, those who worked for the Israelis were arrested tried and given jail terms ranging from a few months to several years. Those civilians who fled to Israel and later returned were also arrested and given prison terms.

To this day, Lebanon refuses entry to any foreigner who has an Israeli entry or exit stamp on his passport

I disagree with Ralph Peters. Urban warfare is a very messy business. Israel leaders did not want to get bogged down. THey just want to destroy Hezbollah's ability to launch raids or rockets into Israel territories. Also they want to remove Hezbollah as the base of power in Southern Lebanon.

Hezbollah lost strategically big time. People of Lebanon are realizing that they can longer let Hezbollah have free rein in Southern Lebanon. If the Lebanese Army establishes a firm hold in the southern part, then Israel can establish a permeanent border agreement with the Lebanon Army counterparts instead of with Hezbollah and the Lebanese Army is not influenced by the Iranians.

As for me, I am kinda happy about the war being over because the high oil prices has been a ***** to my wallet considering I drive a turbo engined car and must refuel with an octane rating of 91 or higher. I am looking forward to lower gas prices.

And from the videos, it would seemed that most fights were meeting engagements with tanks stumbling onto ATGM nests without the benefit of infantry. It was sloppy, as if they have not planned this out.

It should have been planned out. Hezbollah had made use of ATGMs on mass for over a decade. They used TOW missiles to engage bunkers in the 1990s. With the stories of IDF Generals shocked by them using ATGMs to engage IDF troops and tanks on mass it makes one wonder how well lessons were applied.

Cabinet members spar over proposed weapons compromise

By Nada Bakri and Therese Sfeir
Daily Star staff
Wednesday, August 16, 2006


BEIRUT: A compromise agreement currently being hammered out between Hizbullah and the Lebanese government is expected to allow the party to keep hidden weapons in South Lebanon, the London-based Al-Hayat newspaper reported Tuesday.

While Hizbullah would need to keep the weapons it possesses south of the Litani River hidden, an agreement for areas north of the river would be "left to a long-term solution," the paper said.

If the proposed compromise is accepted by Premier Fouad Siniora's Cabinet, it would violate the terms of UN Security Council Resolution 1701. And it is also a violation of the "one weapon" principle of Siniora's seven-point plan.

Resolution 1701 calls for Israel and Lebanon to support a solution based on previous UN resolutions requiring "the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon" apart from state security forces.

While the mandate of the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) within the new resolution does not require foreign troops to disarm Hizbullah themselves, the force is authorized "to ensure that its area of operations is not utilized for hostile activities of any kind" and to support the Lebanese Army in asserting control over all of Lebanon.

Siniora's Cabinet unanimously approved the resolution last Saturday but scheduled another session to discuss Hizbullah ministers' reservations about it and the operative means to implement.

However, the session scheduled for Sunday was indefinitely postponed amid reports that Hizbullah ministers would try to pass the hidden-weapons compromise despite strong opposition from some ministers of the March 14 Forces.

"I will oppose this compromise deal to the end," said Tourism Minister Joe Sarkis, who is also a member of the Lebanese Forces. "We are committed to implementing the UN resolution, which clearly states the area south of the Litani River should be disarmed. The Lebanese can fool each other by hiding weapons but we won't be able to fool the international community."

The minister said Resolution 1701, which provides a mandate for an expanded UNIFIL of 15,000 international troops, contained "obligations" that had to be met.

"What do you want, Minister Fneish? Not to implement the decision? OK let's not implement it and the hell with the country then," said Sarkis.

Energy Minister Mohammad Fneish is Hizbullah minister in Siniora's Cabinet.

Sarkis said commitment to implement the resolution and to unite behind Siniora's Cabinet is to spare the country "a political division and problems." Government sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, said private discussions are being held to convene a Cabinet session, but with no success yet.

They said the talks focus on a pre-set agreement of what the session will decide regarding Hizbullah's weapons south of the Litani River and the deployment of the Lebanese Army there.

Meanwhile Foreign Minister Fawzi Salloukh met Tuesday with his Brazilian counterpart, Celso Amorim.

In a joint news conference, Amorim said talks focused on the need "to establish sustainable peace in the region and deploy the governments' sovereignty over all the Lebanese territories." He said a "sustainable peace cannot be fulfilled but through a comprehensive solution to the Israeli-Palestinian crisis."

Amorim also delivered food and medical aid from Brazil to the Lebanese government.

The Brazilian official later met with Speaker Nabih Berri and Siniora.

Separately, Berri met Tuesday with Egyptian Ambassador Hussein Darrar and Saudi Ambassador Abdel-Aziz Khoja.

Berri also received a phone call from the speaker of the Iranian Parliament, Haddad Adel, who expressed his country's support for Lebanon.

In another development, Information Minister Ghazi Aridi visited the headquarters of Hizbullah's Al-Manar television station in Haret Hreik, which was completely destroyed by Israeli raids, and hailed the "steadfastness of Al-Manar reporters and employees."

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article....ticle_id=74774