Making Enemies

**astralis** · 02 Aug 06,, 01:23

gunnut,

Good that you brought up the Kyoto Protocol.

To date, no signatories have come close to the goal. In fact, we, have polluted less than some nations that have signed the treaty (proportionally of couse).

What you want is to lie our way to friendship. Sign the treaty, or give the appearance of opening to the idea, and then do what we want any ways.

Bush is different. He saw the Kyoto Protocol as unenforceable and unrealistic. Rather than pay lip service and be a lier, he just axed it and say we'll do something else that's more realistic and more enforceable.

I like the honest approach. We'll tell people straight out what we can and cannot do, let's go from there.

The Kyoto Protocol is like a unilateralist movement against the US. A bunch of people came together and said this is what we want and you'll like it. If not, you're a tyrant, bigot, heartless, cowboy, moron who doesn't recognize the danger of pollution to this planet. Meanwhile, we'll do what we want and lie to the people as to the true intentions of our goal.

Bush is bad because he's honest.

European multilateralists are good because they tell you what you want to hear.

come come, what is diplomacy but negotiation based upon hidden information and half truths? come to think of it, what is politics but power arising from such?

there are times when honesty is not always the best policy. you don't call aunt tilda fat and ugly to her face, even if she IS fat and ugly. we called the russians and chinese during WWII fellow democracy-loving freedom-fighters, when clearly the likes of "uncle joe" and chiang kaishek were nothing of the sort.

paying lip service is cheap.

in any case, it's not the basis of multilateralism. multilateralism just means keeping in mind other people's opinions/beliefs/interests, AS WELL as your own, when making a calculation. and again, sometimes this is a good thing, and sometimes it is not.

**dalem** · 02 Aug 06,, 03:18

Originally Posted by astralis

gunnut,

paying lip service is cheap.

Not in terms of Kyoto. That's lip service that leaves your economy with bruised lips and a bad taste in its mouth.

-dale

**astralis** · 02 Aug 06,, 03:59

dalem,

Not in terms of Kyoto. That's lip service that leaves your economy with bruised lips and a bad taste in its mouth.

-dale

why would that be? the 90s' economy certainly showed no signs of it

everyone knew kyoto was a dead letter. if even clinton showed quite a few reservations about it, what were the chances that it would go through the rest of congress?

**dalem** · 02 Aug 06,, 04:26

Originally Posted by astralis

dalem,

why would that be? the 90s' economy certainly showed no signs of it

everyone knew kyoto was a dead letter. if even clinton showed quite a few reservations about it, what were the chances that it would go through the rest of congress?

Not the point at all. It was a bad and wasteful treaty based on faulty analysis and with dubious value. Signing it risked too much for zero gain.

-dale

**astralis** · 02 Aug 06,, 07:57

dalem,

Not the point at all. It was a bad and wasteful treaty based on faulty analysis and with dubious value. Signing it risked too much for zero gain.

-dale

that may as be. but i'm not talking about the treaty itself here. keeping it in indefinite fritz in congress has the precisely the same effect as axe-ing it, without all the frustration and bellyaching such an action would have overseas. that's what i meant by "lip service is cheap".

**dalem** · 02 Aug 06,, 09:45

Originally Posted by astralis

dalem,

that may as be. but i'm not talking about the treaty itself here. keeping it in indefinite fritz in congress has the precisely the same effect as axe-ing it, without all the frustration and bellyaching such an action would have overseas. that's what i meant by "lip service is cheap".

Nahh. Stupid things like Kyoto should be killed before they accidentally get shoved into the limelight by grasping pols.

Besides, we're tired of lip-servicing the rest of the dumba55ed world all the time.

Let them line up to nibble on OUR taint for a change.

-dale

**samardza** · 03 Aug 06,, 00:28

In point of fact, both with Kyoto and the ABM treaties, Bush attemted to get the changes he wanted made. It was only after they were rejected that he canned Kyoto, and after rejection that he followed the protocol and anounce his intention to withdraw from the ABM treaty.

**Shek** · 28 Aug 06,, 04:01

Originally Posted by astralis

gunnut,

certainly. while i don't agree with the article in its entirety, however, i do think there's something to be said for distinguishing thy enemies (which, ironically, the article sometimes does not do). different solutions for different problems. sometimes brute force is needed, and sometimes it isn't.

i wonder where shek went off to; wouldn't mind hearing his views on the article.

Sorry, I was busy getting settled in my digs. I haven't read Rick's book, but I certainly plan on doing so. The description of the raids sound on target for me. I saw and heard some of the same across my brigade, although I would like to think that we vetted our potential targets better. While I learned some stuff in grad that I wish I had known prior to going to Iraq, I can say without a doubt that I made sure that my guys didn't treat a house search like a drill sergeant inspection and did our best not to offend the honor of those within the homes that we searched. I'm sure we weren't perfect, but I made sure that my guys were keenly aware of the need not to make any new enemies, as we already had enough to work with.

BTW, Ricks is very well thought of within the military community, so I imagine that his accounts will be on target.

**Bill** · 28 Aug 06,, 06:25

Lemme know how that is when you're done if you don't mind Major.

And um, fellas, is making enemies anything like making cookies?

Cause i love to make cookies...

**Shek** · 28 Aug 06,, 12:45

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Lemme know how that is when you're done if you don't mind Major.

And um, fellas, is making enemies anything like making cookies?

Cause i love to make cookies...

If you make enough butter cookies, then you're good to go, b/c you can just give out the extras to your enemies and then they wll become your friends.

**astralis** · 30 Aug 06,, 21:12

Sorry, I was busy getting settled in my digs. I haven't read Rick's book, but I certainly plan on doing so. The description of the raids sound on target for me. I saw and heard some of the same across my brigade, although I would like to think that we vetted our potential targets better. While I learned some stuff in grad that I wish I had known prior to going to Iraq, I can say without a doubt that I made sure that my guys didn't treat a house search like a drill sergeant inspection and did our best not to offend the honor of those within the homes that we searched. I'm sure we weren't perfect, but I made sure that my guys were keenly aware of the need not to make any new enemies, as we already had enough to work with.

thanks, shek.

you settled in yet? i just moved from san diego to the east coast meself.