lemontree

Its something like analsys of a historical character, and not bashing.
Are you also suggesting that he should have gone into battle unprepared and outnumbered?[/quote]
By no means, am I suggesting that he go unprepared. Montgomery was a good logistician and planner, but he was unable to follow up a victory swiftly and push forward.
El Alamein was the most important battle in North Africa. After it the enemy, Germans and Italians were a declining force.[/quote]
The second Battle of El Alamein to be precise. The reasons were the lack of air superiority of the DAK, and distance of logistical bases that were in Italy.
In Russia the same year the battle of Stalingrad took place. Should we denigrate the Russians for being so unsporting as to have more men in the conflict? [/quote]
A Russian General would have been unsporting, if when asked to name 3 great generals, would have smiled and name Alexander, Napoleon and included himself as the third.

I place Field Marshal Bill Slim, head and shoulders above Monty. Slim was a thorough gentleman, while Monty tended to throw tantrums. Slim was the one who turned defeat into victory, with half the resources than what Monty got.

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Cheers!...on the rocks!!

lemontree

Monty played only when he had a good hand, Slim played inspite of a bad hand and still won. For me that is better leadership.

glyn

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Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

Elbmek

Tut! Tut! Grammar dear chap!


I have had the pleasure to know some really good officers in my Regiment, I cannot really count the bad ones on more than one hand. But, on the other hand I know a real idiot who, the last time I saw him, was a Lt Col in Ulster. Never was there more a person who deserved the worst life could offer but him. He spent most, or all, of his Army life behind a desk in Whitehall before being posted to Belfast. He walked into camp and quite a few careers were ruined by this idiot, my own included. His name was Richard and his surname is the same as a chess piece. I took him to the Army Board, via HQNI, to no avail, he was always going to win.

I hope he met his just deserts somewhere, somehow. He probably got hit by a speeding typewriter or something in the hallowed halls of the MoD. Never was a man more detested. His 2IC spent more taxpayers money on "conferences" than any other man I have ever known - they all seemed to be at the same place - somewhere called the 19th hole .

So, officers by rank are not necessarily worthy of such rank. Many do not earn respect of their juniors and therefore, do not merit their status in the British Army. An officer by rank is not reflective on their ability but how many of them are able, without conscience, to step on others to get where they are.

The other side is that I have seen and known brilliant officers who do not attain that which they deserve.

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Never lie, then you have nothing to try and remember.

Ray

Mr Richard Lamb in his book suggests, that the fame he won at Alamein, the decisive battle of the desert war, and the adulation the British people showered on him when he returned to England gave him an exaggerated view of his own abilities.

The tardy Italian Campaign is a case in point of Montgomery's ability or lack of ability to get a move on and instead move in a tedious manner.

The Eighth Army's slow progress to the relief of the embattled Americans and British troops in the Salerno beachhead, in Lamb's view, ''was due entirely to Montgomery failing to give orders to push on as far and as fast as possible'' to relieve the beachhead.

In Mr Lamb's opinion Montgomery's most serious ''fundamental'' mistake was his failure to attack and defeat the German 15th Army which dominated the channel leading from Antwerp to the sea. Instead he turned his attention to the airborne landing at Arnheim almost obsessed by the idea that, if this was successful, he would lead a massive Allied army into northern Germany. So great was his optimism that he wrote a friend in London that he expected to be in Berlin in two weeks.

There is also a view that Churchill promoted Montgomery and gave him all he wanted because Churchill wanted the British to also be in the limelight of success!

Everything is contestable depending upon which side one is rooting for!

There is nothing black or white. It's all shades of grey!

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"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Ray

I compare Patton who succeeded with the 'leastest' but the fastest!

And the Battle of the Bulge is the classic where he was handicapped by the Allied HQs itself!

They say it was done to maintain a parity in the success of the different Allied armies involved!

Patton was a genuine born soldier. Warfighting was in his blood. He went into war even under the command of his junior! Trappings did not concern him. Victory, the fog of war and the smell of cordite alone shot his adrenalin!


Slim was another great! He actually started the win in the East when all had given up hope. He did not get his deserved share of glory. Was it because of the then British class snob discrimination? Many a book give Slim a left handed compliment about his being from the lower middle class background!

lemontree

Sir,
Some suggest that he faced some discrimination because he was from the British Indian Army and not British Army. Besides his victory was in some far off jungle country, while El Alamine was closer home near the Mediterranean Sea and in the limelight.

Ray

That is also a good reason.

The lower middle class pizazz sort of rankles and so I remembered this! And to be fair, it rankled since it appeared so incongruous to the achievement.

Likewise, if I remember right, Montgomery was a schoolteacher's child.

Whereas I should remember their exploits, it is a downright shame that I remember these thing which are not material and forget the exploits!

Officer of Engineers

Montgomery beaten Rommel ... that's about the only claim to fame he's got.

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Chimo

Draconion

Actually montgomerys dad was a priest.

I beg to differ. In one book which I read, the author had written that Monty wanted to join the British Indian Army, but because he was 34th in his Course, he couldnt. This obviously means that the best went in the British Indian Army...so I dont see any point as to why he'd be discriminated against.

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"To every man upon this earth, Death cometh soon or late;
And how can a man die better; Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his father; And the temples of his gods."

Elbmek

Don't you mean as a Centurion on a Mk 4 Chariot?

Elbmek

And thats not enough? A lot of Monty's fame came as a direct result of Enigma intercepts - he knew what the Axis were up to before he moved in most cases. He also built a "dummy" Army with the help of a theatrical group deep to the south of his intended advance thereby ensuring that the Axis were split in two. They used phoney radio traffic to further cement the deception. Oh yes, he was clever, but did have help!

glyn

Officer of Engineers

Us Canadians have a very different memory of Montgomery and is not favourable.

glyn