T-55 VS M48 Patton

RepublicanGuard · 12-15-2005, 15:59 PM

Equally trained crews, flat open desert terrain, 1960's versions of T-55 and M48. Who Wins?

Horrido · 12-15-2005, 17:01 PM

The Israelies.

lemontree · 12-16-2005, 00:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RepublicanGuard

Equally trained crews, flat open desert terrain, 1960's versions of T-55 and M48. Who Wins?

Simple question...
T-55 main gun - 100 mm rifled - max range of AT ammo is 2500 mtrs
M60 main gun - 105 mm rifled - max range of HESH round is 3000 or 5000 mtrs (?)

The T-55 is out gunned by the M60.

**TopHatter** · 12-16-2005, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horrido

The Israelies.

*snicker*

*snerk*

Oh what the heck...

*laughing my ass off*

indianguy4u · 12-16-2005, 02:18 AM

Patton Nagar [indo-pak war 1965]

Quote:

The most accurate Indian account of this most perilous phase in that war is to be found in War Despatches (Lancer International, 1991) written by Lt-Gen Harbakhsh Singh, the hero and western theatre commander in 1965. He confirms the arguments between him and Gen Chowdhury, one wanting to fight at Khemkaran and the other wanting to withdraw. Harbaksh won the argument—the larger objective now was to destroy Pak armour—and laid a trap for the over-confident Pakistani tank force, breached some canals to flood vast stretches of land, forcing the Pakistanis to drive through a narrow area which became a killing ground on a moonlit night. The truth is, there was no real tank battle at Khemkaran on September 10, 1965. It was a massacre that left behind the famous Patton Nagar at Bhikhiwind. Pakistan’s 1 Armoured Division, the pride of its army, withdrew leaving behind 75 tanks destroyed or abandoned. It was led valiantly, and from the front, but with a rash foolhardiness that was the hallmark of Pakistani generalship in that war. Its GOC, Maj-Gen Nasir Ahmed Khan, was seriously wounded, its artillery commander, Brigadier Shammi, was killed and buried by the Indian army at the village Assaluttar—after which the battle is named for posterity—not far from the grave of Indian anti-tank gunner Havildar Abdul Hamid, who won his Param Vir Chakra in that battle. The entire tank force of Pakistan’s famed 4 Cavalry was captured along with its CO, 12 other officers (including six majors) and several others who surrendered voluntarily on the morning of September 11. The war’s most audacious attack, one that spread shivers in Delhi, had ended in complete disaster. That is the near-victory Gauhar credits on the alleged betrayal of secrets by an Indian brigadier. It was, instead, a history of great tactical dash followed by incredible foolhardiness, and indeed the defender’s nerve.

While it hung on to a small — just about 50 sq km — chunk of territory, the Pakistani army never recovered from the disaster of Khemkaran. You do not have to believe stories that Indian reporters or soldiers of that time tell you. I heard it first hand from Wolf Gross, who I met in 1987 while researching an arms proliferation book in Northrop Corporation’s office in Rosslyn, on the outskirts of Washington. In 1965, Gross was a military attache with the US Embassy in New Delhi and was in the first group of foreign diplomats to be taken to see Patton Nagar. It was the real thing. As a sharp-eyed soldier, he could also see how (for India) it was also such a near thing. The Pakistani assault was brilliant in conception and initiation but all this turned into suicidal stupidity in the euphoria of initial successes.

lemontree · 12-16-2005, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RepublicanGuard

Equally trained crews, flat open desert terrain, 1960's versions of T-55 and M48. Who Wins?

Quote:

Simple question...
T-55 main gun - 100 mm rifled - max range of AT ammo is 2500 mtrs
M60 main gun - 105 mm rifled - max range of HESH round is 3000 or 5000 mtrs (?)

The T-55 is out gunned by the M60.

Oops...I made a mistake. The question was T-55 vs M48 and not M60

In this case the T-55 out guns the M48's 90 mm (max range of 1500 mtrs). The T-55 would be the winner flat open terrain and equally trained crews.

troung · 12-25-2005, 15:22 PM

The versions should be picked better...

The M-48A3 has a 90mm but the M-48A5 has the 105mm. Combat seems to have shown the M-48 the better tank granted crews are never equal, tactics are never the same and no one duels. From the Iran Iraq War to the Second Indochina War and Arab Israeli wars the M-48s of all versions have come out ahead. In IDF service the M-48 was more popular then the upgraded T-55s.

Anon · 12-25-2005, 17:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troung

The versions should be picked better...

The M-48A3 has a 90mm but the M-48A5 has the 105mm. Combat seems to have shown the M-48 the better tank granted crews are never equal, tactics are never the same and no one duels. From the Iran Iraq War to the Second Indochina War and Arab Israeli wars the M-48s of all versions have come out ahead. In IDF service the M-48 was more popular then the upgraded T-55s.

By the time the M-48A5 entered service the T-55 had been long since relegated to Soviet Class C divisions. The M-48A5 was a 70s model IIRC. We still had them in service with the guard until the 80s.

troung · 12-25-2005, 19:01 PM

The IDF already had 105mm armed M-48s in the 1968 with L-7 guns as used on the IDFs Centurion fleet. Yet of course the 105mm armed M-48A5 stop gap did enter service with the USA in the 1970s actually post 1973. So in the 1967 war 90mm armed M-48s did face down T-55s as they did in the 2nd Indochina War.

Of course looking at special models would lead one to conclude the Sherman was better then the T-55 int he 1960s because the French made 105mm L/P gun was fitted to Shermans in Israeli service...

Seems like the M-48 even the M-48A3 was more advanced and more favored by crews and the 90mm was capable to knocking out a T-55 with of course the 100mm being able to kill a M-48. Crew comfort is one of those things rarely thought about but it makes a difference. But those early gasoline powered models had problems from operational range to catching fire.

But versus topics are bad because one can never factor in equal crews, equal suprise, equal readiness and equal support.

Anon · 12-25-2005, 19:04 PM

I can tell ya this much.

I'd MUCH rather go into battle in an M-60A3TTS than a T-72(domestic soviet model).

I'd pick any model M-1 to put my tail in than ANY russian tank ever fielded.

lurker · 12-27-2005, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

I can tell ya this much.

I'd MUCH rather go into battle in an M-60A3TTS than a T-72(domestic soviet model).

We had no doubt that you want to die a hero.

Bluesman · 12-27-2005, 11:39 AM

Here we go again...

**TopHatter** · 12-27-2005, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluesman

Here we go again...

You said it Chewie

Weps · 12-30-2005, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

I can tell ya this much.

I'd MUCH rather go into battle in an M-60A3TTS than a T-72(domestic soviet model).

I'd pick any model M-1 to put my tail in than ANY russian tank ever fielded.

Ditto. M60A3 TTS was an awesome tank, one of the best.

lemontree · 01-03-2006, 00:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

I can tell ya this much.

I'd MUCH rather go into battle in an M-60A3TTS than a T-72(domestic soviet model).

I'd pick any model M-1 to put my tail in than ANY russian tank ever fielded.

I did rather stay out of any of these machines....they make prime targets -everyone from the AF, arty and armd corps is gunning for them, and they leave the poor infantry man to do his eveil stuff.

12-15-2005, 15:59 PM	#1 (permalink)
RepublicanGuard Banished Join Date: 03-04-05 Posts: 73	T-55 VS M48 Patton Equally trained crews, flat open desert terrain, 1960's versions of T-55 and M48. Who Wins?

12-15-2005, 17:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
Horrido Staff Emeritus Chief Subversive Join Date: 08-04-03 Location: Secure, and undisclosed. Posts: 979	The Israelies. __________________ The black flag is raised: Ban them all... Let the Admin sort them out. I know I'm going to have the last word... I have powers of deletion and lock.

12-27-2005, 11:39 AM	#12 (permalink)
Bluesman WAB Bartender *Defense Professional* *Military Professional* Join Date: 11-24-04 Location: Vacaville, CA. Posts: 7,311 Country:	Here we go again... __________________ "The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory." - George Orwell

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12-25-2005, 15:22 PM	#7 (permalink)
troung A Self Important *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 4,121 Country:	The versions should be picked better... The M-48A3 has a 90mm but the M-48A5 has the 105mm. Combat seems to have shown the M-48 the better tank granted crews are never equal, tactics are never the same and no one duels. From the Iran Iraq War to the Second Indochina War and Arab Israeli wars the M-48s of all versions have come out ahead. In IDF service the M-48 was more popular then the upgraded T-55s.

12-25-2005, 19:01 PM	#9 (permalink)
troung A Self Important *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 4,121 Country:	The IDF already had 105mm armed M-48s in the 1968 with L-7 guns as used on the IDFs Centurion fleet. Yet of course the 105mm armed M-48A5 stop gap did enter service with the USA in the 1970s actually post 1973. So in the 1967 war 90mm armed M-48s did face down T-55s as they did in the 2nd Indochina War. Of course looking at special models would lead one to conclude the Sherman was better then the T-55 int he 1960s because the French made 105mm L/P gun was fitted to Shermans in Israeli service... Seems like the M-48 even the M-48A3 was more advanced and more favored by crews and the 90mm was capable to knocking out a T-55 with of course the 100mm being able to kill a M-48. Crew comfort is one of those things rarely thought about but it makes a difference. But those early gasoline powered models had problems from operational range to catching fire. But versus topics are bad because one can never factor in equal crews, equal suprise, equal readiness and equal support.

12-25-2005, 19:04 PM	#10 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 1	I can tell ya this much. I'd MUCH rather go into battle in an M-60A3TTS than a T-72(domestic soviet model). I'd pick any model M-1 to put my tail in than ANY russian tank ever fielded.

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