Anon

I disagree entirely. Getting too caught up in precision overlooks the fact that for some targets nothing can match the effect of brute force spread over a large area.

If you're hitting an Inf Bn advancing on an objective your forces are defending the last thing you'd use is precision munitions until the enemy got close, and by that time, the vast majority of our precision air dropped bombs are simply too large and powerful to be used that close to our forces.

SDB and 500lb Paveways/GPS bombs would be fine, anything larger than that, and the minumum safe distance to friendly troops is over 300+ meters.

What you'd end up getting CAS wise once the enemy closed inside your DCZ is strafing runs and rocket attacks....which are both unguided weapons anyway.

Anon

I actually agree with the Gunny here.

Artillery dominates the battlefield. 1 man with one radio can totally disrupt the entire scheme of operations for an entire Bde sized force continuously over a prolonged period of time.

There is no other system that can do the same, not even airpower.

Gun Grape

I see your time at Sill was well spent

lurker

Those sources he used are incomplete a little bit.

Smerch uses 7 types of rockets:

9M55K - cassete with 72 high-frag bomblets.
9M55K1 - cassete with 5 self-guided HEAT bomblets.
9M55K4 - cassete with 25 magnetic anti-tank mines.
9M55K5 -cassete with 646 HEAT-fragmentation bomblets.
9M55F - parachuted HE fragmentation bomblet.
9M55S - thermobaric round.
9M528 - HE fragmentation.

K1 is exactly the thing you need to surprise tanks on a road.

__________________
Long time we thought that a million monkeys in front of a million typewriters would eventually type William Shakespeare's complete works.
After invention of the Internet, we understand that it's not true.

Anon

Pfft, damned straight Gunny. They don't call it "King of the Battlefield" for nuthin, and we all know how fond i was of my radio.

In field problems when i encountered the enemy at range(which was almost always given my MOS), i almost always reached for the handset to the SINCGARS rather than for the safety of my M-21.

Besides, arty doesn't give up your POS.

Garry

Hi Gun Grape! Now I see the advantages of M-280. Indeed being autonomous increases its chance of survival until firing.... but then it is too late for enemy. Listen - can it be compared to a short version of Smerch - two vehicles, a command and laucher? This group is not that easy to find as a group of 6 vehicles. It would still be cheaper than one M-280 and have higher range, weight of salvo, and cost per salvo. I agree that hiding a group of six vehicles is quite a hard task but two is more mobile group!

I still can not understand why they never barraged brindges with salvo from Nasriya? And why they needed so much of computations if they had MANY month for testshooting of every inch of important areas which coalition would definitelly pass. One barrage would have destroyed a bridge and a lot of troops. It is far smarter than the suisadal tank attack they did in the night without air support and artillery preparation. They could have calculated fire computations for long before!!!

In Chechnya one salvo from one Grad launcher did heavy dammage to a armored colunm. Smerch is much more powerful. I remember it was aimed to attack advancing enemy. It can cover large areas...... where enemy is moving. I am not expert but I see no problems here

yes, it is not good against heavy bunkers but a fortified positions that are open to air fuel bombing can be destroyed by Smerch.
http://www.splav.org/en/arms/smerch/m55c.asp
this is very much like the famours Buratino which is a very short range thing but destroys everything in square of 200m x 400m.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ssia/tos-1.htm
http://warfare.ru/?linkid=1582&catid=240&image=338


I agree about few inches of steel. Its self guided cassets can penetrate 70mm armor at 30 degree angle - just enough for any tank from top. here it is not translated from Russian properly - Russian it is called a self guiding cassete http://www.splav.org/en/arms/smerch/m55k1.asp

it depends on where do you shoot it.... UAV may come not on direct trajectory but be launched to some area and then fly away. Moreover this shell has special fuel which leaves little trace. So it would be hard to calculate a trajectory on which UAN came to your position..... it may be launched up and then fly to you from anywehre. All you would know is that somebody observing you and preparing a salvo which may go in minutes on your positions.

This is a bit separate system. Krasnopol is used to guide any atrillery/MLRS shells to a target..... it is add in to an normal artillery but guided by lazer. Same was applied recently to MLRS. A Rockets with Kranopol guiding were fired and tested. But it requries somebody sit on spot and guide them..... and SMERCH then shoots from 90km range only few of its rockets which go preciselly to any moving/unmoving target.
http://www.shipunov.com/rus/kuwr/krasn.htm
http://www.shipunov.com/eng/kuw/kuw.htm

So Krasnopol complex was used by SMERCH and evaluation was positive... it will be fielded.

I agree that it is better to pay many times for being sure that what needs to be destoyed is destroyed!

canoe

Just a point on technicallity of range, I think the treaty prohibits the U.S from having guided land launched missiles with ranges in excess of 400km.

The Chap

intrigiuing stuff

Only two thoughts:

#1
Whomever spotted that the US does not have to give a s**t about system cost(let alone $munitions) has the Actualite down pat.

#2
This one being doctrinal. These are first strike weapons. All pleasently in place whilst "negotiations" and/or "mediations" are "arbitrated". Then the barage opens. First fire. Hence the re-load issue is somewhat redundant. Russian naval strategy and accompanying design perhaps supports this. As US ships had a sustained munition capability via fewer projection points, Russian assests concentrated upon a philosophy of "chuck everything you can at the enemy asap and worry about re-loading if y'alive when the smoke clears". I trust the parallel is not lost. Unlike my typing.

__________________
Where's the bloody gin? An army marches on its liver, not its ruddy stomach.

Garry

Yes but we speak here of systems of massive barrage with range of 90km... stil good enough.

Russia was always preparing for total war.... the one which it faced in WW II. In wars like this initial success does not matter if you can not sustain it. Hence you either MUST crash your enemy in the very begining, or have weapons which make economic rational and give maximum effect per unit of cost.

In general Smerch is good weapon. GunGrape pointed to its significant weakness - separate vehicle for targeting. Though I am pretty sure that targeting vehicle can be combined with launcher making a single vehicle which wold be much more automonous and harder to find .... on other parameters Smerch has ABSOLUTE PERFORMANCE ADVANTAGE (range, load, cost, targeting capabilities, precision) over its foreign peers though having SIGNIFICANT ADVANTAGE IN COST. Though I might be wrong.... understanding little in artillery weapons.

No matter how good or bad guys who may use it.... it they are worriers smarter than Iraqis were the SMERCH would be among HIGHEST PRIORITY threat to their enemies.

ps. Iran has around 100 of less sophisticated GRAD launchers with range of up to 40km..... it does not have complex targeting machine. But it has bad precision.... and VERY VERY cheap 122mm shells, with loading time close to a 5 minutes and coverage area of 15 hectares. This are harder to find..... but they have less capabilities. In 1995 one salvo by Chechen rebbels on an armored column had quite devastating result..... Iranians have got this in 1994....

Important to note that Iraqis were delivered 154 Grad launchers in 1988 but it had ABSOLUTELLY NO EFFECT ON US AMRY ADVANCE.... the launchers were not even used a single time.

The Chap

C&C problems to one side, I'm curious as to whether maintenance and the shelf life of both propellent and payload played a significant role.

I suspect that the fact the poor sods knew they'd be shat upon from upon high immediatly the barage lit up has more to do with it. No, actually,

Garry

Have no idea how long they could be stored... in general the shells can be stored for decades if stored in proper conditions. I guess in Iraqi deserts it must have quite a long period of shelf life.... I never heard that lack of amunition was a problem for Iraqis.

timmi

How effective would a vehicle/tank column with M-39s/MLRSs and Apache and Predator cover? and f-18, f-22, f-35 and any other flying steels against
a couple of Smerches with S-400 (SA-20 in nato specs)Triumf for far/middle range and Tor-M1TA for short ranges/helicopters?
no tanks, no vehicles, no apaches and predators.. only few orders for the Star-Spangled Flag for relatives heroically lost US Troopers ..

HistoricalDavid

There's no reason to suggest the F-22A wouldn't make mincemeat of the S-400 with SDBs.

MOPO3

Hi Garry! Have you ever seen such MRLS? I guess it is able to charge itself. I suppose the launcher is made in Byelorussia.

Attached Images

Russian_MRLS_01.jpg (50.7 KB, 148 views)

Garry

Is it a Grad BM-21? Its platform is somewhat big!!! Grad is actually quite widelly used weapon system.... I read a lot about its use by NAVY.