VovaLee

I have noticed interesting feature.
If there is somebody an asking question which is not entered in idea of the total Americans superiority.
Immediately somebody speaks about that that if suddenly all Russian weapon will be destroyed beforehand, or Russian cannot operate him, or they will not want to be at war.

If you will notice the Tornado (Smerch).
If it will not have covering.
If it will kill before then it can will make a volley.
If... If... If...

Garry

Hi magic-spaceship

both things are needed - mass launch weapons with cheap munitions, and hihgly precise and expensive munitions.... each has its own application.

Precision weapons is good to be applied against single and very expensive targets... for example good use against critical infrustructure. However you will not apply a guided missle to kill one soldier. Another limitation is that sometimes you have a massive assault and you don't want to kill a particular target but rather everything in a certain area.... then MLRS is good thing for that.... it makes a massive assault quite a risky if enemy can cover you with salvo....

This is exactly the reason why to have something between ATACM/Iskander and MLRS/Grad..... the cost of use. One ATACM is worth more than a $0.82 mln (in 1991) while a MLRS salvo would cost you around $0.05mln and covers much larger area... That is why ATACM is used against worth targets like SAMs, command centers, munition storages etc... Nobody would shout it against a tank which is worth $1-2mln.

Grad salvo would cost you around $2,000 ($50 per rocket). While SMERCH would cost $0.08-$0.16mln depending on type of munition. If you know that a column of tanks/APC is approaching you anywhere closer than $90km then Salvo from 3-4 SMERCH trucks is good response..... column is destroyed (each tank $1-2mln, or much more if it is Abrams :-) while you spent max $0.64mln..... plus may have lost 4 SMERCH trucks.... still you made your enemy huge, huge damage....

That is why I don't understand how did you prevent Iraqis using this weapons.... or maybe they just did not have munitions...

Regarding Cheap vs Expensive and High Quality vs Low Quality.... US weapons are expensive not because of high quality.... look at your Army trucks - Stryker is worth more than 2mln while BMP 3 costs just $0.8mln.... believe me no need to compare these two APCs.

Hi cost can come from many reasons:
- lack of administration of your millitary spendings (read my post about Shuttle vs Soyuz);
- sometimes expensive and inefficient R&D build into the price;
- higher manufacturing costs in US ;
- and sometimes really higher quality of underlying materials and components....

Here many guys lead by Sniper have their own subjective judgement about reliability of Russian hardware, though having little experience with it or judging by untrained Iraqis... Try to be ojective and isolate yourself from unsupported judgements. There are bad piece of equipement on any side.... but in general millitary equipement made in US, Europe and Soviet Union is quite reliable.....

Garry

this is the major problem... both MLRS or Smerch/Grad is easy to hide as a truck... you may identify it only when it starts its SALVO... but then it is too late as salvo lasts just 30-40 seconds...

there is one solution that I see.... to destroy every truck and garage, and house at a distance of 90km from your column.... Avoid coming to cities closer than 90km....

why didn't they should from Basra or Nasriaya? It is so easy to hide those trucks in city.... probably they have lost salvo weapons in first war or had no shells.....

VovaLee

Garry where are you from?

hello

"If you will notice the Tornado (Smerch)."

The Predators will take care of that.

"If it will not have covering."

It will. But its tanks and vehicles won't be effective as cover cause they'll have to get pretty close so what's the point? It won't have air cover which lasts long enough to help it.

"If it will kill before then it can will make a volley."

That sentence doesn't really make sense.

VovaLee

Differently.
IF Russian will be drunk and will overlook to create air covering for Smerch THEN....

Garry

Why predator can sort out where is truck and where a salvo truck better than any normal aircraft/helicopter?

I did not understand your point with cover.... how can you cover something with tank or vehicle? If you mean vehicle carrying MLRS... then 50-90km is good distance to shoot out enemies columns.....

Still the great wonder is how actually US troops avoided any salvo against them when approaching closer to cities like Nasriya, Basra, Bagdad.... seems like nobody really wanted to fight there or Iraqis did not have salvo weapons.... In 1980-es SU sold them 24 units of Uragan and 154 units of Grad. Uragan could clear 25 hectares of land from everything alive at distance of 60km while Grad clears 15 hectares at 40km.... I guess everything has been lost in first war, otherwise I see no reason why nobody used these weapons. Look at Grad picture here... this truck is just like any other truck.... so many ways how to hide it in the city!!!

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hello

That's not what I meant. I meant the air cover got downed.

I guess SAM cover is a better idea.

VovaLee

IF... air cover got downed ...THEN...

hello

... those Sukhoi's wouldn't last against f22s, predators and apches would crush smerchy, column destroys target.

VovaLee

Certainly...
IF ....
THEN Sukhoi's wouldn't last against f22s, predators and apches would crush smerchy, column destroys target.

Garry

Hello, I mean the best cover is that it is damn hard to find and identify you properly.... + you are so cheap that even if they found you... they spent much more resources on this than your actual cost. + the harm that you may incurr to enemy is no way comparable with your cost....

Look again at Grad foto... and tell me is it realistically possible to find and identify 20-30 GRAD units hiden in....... lets say in Basra?

Do you know how hard it was to find captured Grad units to Russian troops in Chechnay? Every house was checked and every truck was observed.... Their luck was that Chechens had shells for just one Salvo......

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Officer of Engineers

What difference would it had made? The Iraqis had the best FOP on the planet - CNN who were litterally broadcasting the exact layouts of where and when the Americans are ... and nothing.

__________________
Chimo

Garry

Exactly! Why it was never used? No reports about Grad shooting even once? So many reports about tanks trying to get out of Basra but nothing about Grad use.....

You have much beter knowledge of what happened there. Was the use of Grad somehow prevented... How? I really curious.

Do you think Iraqis did not have Grads/Uragan's and that is why never shot a single salvo?

I did not get what FOP means.... if you speak about artillery then I remamber they fired some form Basra, with no success.... but Grad would have been much more efficient against assaulting enemy....

Regarding difference? I guess no difference. US had too much resources for this to make difference. However it could really bring good losses to enemy and slow donw advance

Officer of Engineers

In the case of Basra, the Iraqi 51st Infantry Division initially surrendered before loyal Saddam elements took command and reformed themselves along brigade lines. That effectively reduced their chances to use artillery at the division level while everyone who was left was re-roled into line roles.