Type 90(Japanese) vs. Type 98(Chinese) - Page 5

Anon · 10-04-2003, 22:59 PM

So in what military did you train on the M1A1, and what makes you think the tank you trained on was representitive of a typical US M-1?

What nation did you serve for?

Or is that too big a secret too...?

BTW, i wouldn't serve in a modern tank, they're no more than rolling coffins when they go against well equipped and highly trained infantry in anytyhing but open terrain.

Let alone what TACAIR and Rotary avaition do to them.

Might as well ride around in a big neon bullseye.

axl · 10-05-2003, 05:03 AM

you have no idea how tanks should be used, haven't you? tanks are not big targets, which move slowly and just wait that somebody kills them. tanks are also not alone, they are part of a combined force. ever seen how easy it is to aim a helicopter with a 120mm gun (its not more dificult with the russian 125mm one)? don't think all armed forces of the world are like the poor guys in the iraq.

regards
axl

Praxus · 10-05-2003, 08:30 AM

An Apache Gunship can knock out enemy tanks at over 8km. This is about 3km beyond the range you could hit a helicopter. This is beyond the range of 20/25/30mm AAA. Or did you not know this?

Now imagine being in a Russian tank, how do you avoid from being hit by an SBD that was released 40nm away and about 6 miles up?

I don't know were you got the right to question his knowledge when you continue to ignore the question "What is your unit" and "What military did you serve for"?

axl · 10-05-2003, 08:43 AM

what is the range the apache can designate targets on? what is the normal combat range in europe? all you are refering to is the max range of the longbow, but that is not what can be used in reality. what do you think how many ground units just wait that a helicopter is switching on its radar? how easy is it for the radar operator to distinguish between possible targets and ground interferences? marketing prospects are nice, but don't really show the reality. target identification from the apache can be done only visual on ranges not much larger than 2km. from the ground it is much easier to idetify a helicopter hanging in the sky than a tank on the ground somewhere in a static position and full of cammo. ever looked thru a thermal sight?

regards
axl

Praxus · 10-05-2003, 10:30 AM

Quote:

what is the range the apache can designate targets on? what is the normal combat range in europe? all you are refering to is the max range of the longbow, but that is not what can be used in reality. what do you think how many ground units just wait that a helicopter is switching on its radar? how easy is it for the radar operator to distinguish between possible targets and ground interferences? marketing prospects are nice, but don't really show the reality. target identification from the apache can be done only visual on ranges not much larger than 2km. from the ground it is much easier to idetify a helicopter hanging in the sky than a tank on the ground somewhere in a static position and full of cammo. ever looked thru a thermal sight?

You have no room to talk about anything because you continuely avoid this question...

WHAT UNIT WERE YOU IN?
WHAT MILITARY WERE YOU IN?
WHAT WAS YOUR MOS?
WHAT WAS YOUR RANK?

Now answer the ****ING question you God Damn European dip ****.

axl · 10-05-2003, 10:37 AM

you are so sweet when you are angry...

regards
axl

@admin: can you please correct it, i see that as a personal attack (see forum rules)

Edit in by Mod. Not sure about Admins. But I also hate a potential Military faker.

Answer the questions!

Unit?
MOS?
Military?
Rank?

Praxus · 10-05-2003, 10:51 AM

How hard is it, to simply tell us what Unit you were in. You are continuely trying to avoid the question.

So just answer it!

I don't think the Admin is gonna side with an ass hole that says he is in the military but won't say what unit he is in.

Anon · 10-05-2003, 12:49 PM

"you have no idea how tanks should be used, haven't you? tanks are not big targets, which move slowly and just wait that somebody kills them. tanks are also not alone, they are part of a combined force. ever seen how easy it is to aim a helicopter with a 120mm gun (its not more dificult with the russian 125mm one)? don't think all armed forces of the world are like the poor guys in the iraq."

Tell me Axl, when has an MBT EVER destroyed an attack helo with it's main gun in the entire history of warfare?

It's never happened.

Our DATs used to say the same stupid things, and we used to laugh at them too.

But no, i have no idea how tanks should be used, i was only one of the eyes for the whole battalion, and the main body of our force was only commited to an axis of advance based on the Scout Platoon's continuing battlefield intelligence observations. So yeah, what do i know....?

Sorry man, but you are coming across as a fraud. You made one too many 'BTDT' claims, and your steadfast reluctance to provide any service history smells of deception.

You think i've never run across posers before? Make all sorts of claims, never ID their service history, and immediately start insulting others when the spotlight falls on them.

Personally, i don't think you know a CVC from a track bar, unless you read about it in a book.

BTW, even in Europe, an Apache will outrange an MBT easily. Helicopters do have the advantadge of vertical manuever you know.

axl · 10-05-2003, 13:09 PM

you are totally right that no main battle tank ever shot down a helicopter. the reason is simply because no modern tanks were ever in a battle were they were able to do so. the usa is not training that (except with the mpat round), but during desert storm there were no iraqi helicopters available. a mbt needs a laser range finder and dynamic lead, without that its horribly difficult to do so. the israelian tankers i talked to confirmed that they are training to aim on helicopters. with the merk 3 baz its much easier, as it is equipped with a target tracking system. modern mbt, including russian t-80u/90, are able to hit helicopters, it depends only on the training. we tracked even the a-10. they came usually around to make targetting exercises on my base.

i would never make the statement that a helicopter outranges a mbt. first the helicopter has to find the tank and that may be difficult. ever seen a german tank platoon when a helicopter comes in sight? four tanks tracking that one helicopter. and be sure, he does not know about it.

regards
axl

Anon · 10-05-2003, 13:13 PM

Axl, if you see an Apache at all, it's because the 58Delta has already vectored them in for the kill.

If you can see them, they can almost definitely see you, and are probably already looking for you.

Using the main gun for helo engagements is an act of desperation.

axl · 10-05-2003, 13:40 PM

i don't think so. not always if somebody aims on you you are also looking for him.
thermal sights are not perfect, but they are the best thing available. it is pretty easy to find a target in the open. covered targets are difficult. and as with the human eye, you find moving targets easier than static (as a sniper you shoudl know all that). helicopters don't hide in a static position, they move always. as tanks look from the ground, helicopters will have often the sky in the back. in addition helicopters can't switch off the the engines, tanks can. the rotor of a helicopter is always hot and can be spottet, as it is not something that you would expect, it's really easy to track. for helicopters its different. as it is moving fast, the sight will scan a wide area. the "data processing" is still done by a human gunner. and he is never able to really see everything. and tanks don't wait uncovered in the open.

using the main gun against helicopters is a normal way of attacking a target. what other weapon should a main battle tank use? the aamg? a not stabilized and human guided 7.62 or 12.7mm weapon? sorry, but ww2 is long gone. you can try to attack flying targets on less than 1.000m and even then you will most of the time not hit. without a dynamic lead you can suck your thumb to find the right point to aim on.
the apfsds round of a western mbt will travel with a speed larger than 1600m/s on an extremely flat path. even if you don't hit the helicopter, your round will make some nice turbulences, which the helicopter pilot will never forget.

regrads
axl

Praxus · 10-05-2003, 13:46 PM

Quote:

we tracked even the a-10. they came usually around to make targetting exercises on my base.

If you have to trrack an A-10 with Tanks your already screwed.

What exactly is "my base"?

Quote:

i don't think so. not always if somebody aims on you you are also looking for him.
thermal sights are not perfect, but they are the best thing available. it is pretty easy to find a target in the open. covered targets are difficult. and as with the human eye, you find moving targets easier than static (as a sniper you shoudl know all that). helicopters don't hide in a static position, they move always. as tanks look from the ground, helicopters will have often the sky in the back. in addition helicopters can't switch off the the engines, tanks can. the rotor of a helicopter is always hot and can be spottet, as it is not something that you would expect, it's really easy to track. for helicopters its different. as it is moving fast, the sight will scan a wide area. the "data processing" is still done by a human gunner. and he is never able to really see everything. and tanks don't wait uncovered in the open.

A big fat deisel engine and a gas turbine exspecially stays hot for well over an hour after the engine is turned off. Simply turning your engine off isn't gonna make you disapear off FLIR. It won't do anything what so ever to avoid detection by SAR. A big steel hule is gonna reflect radar waves more then anything else around the tank.

Quote:

using the main gun against helicopters is a normal way of attacking a target. what other weapon should a main battle tank use? the aamg? a not stabilized and human guided 7.62 or 12.7mm weapon? sorry, but ww2 is long gone. you can try to attack flying targets on less than 1.000m and even then you will most of the time not hit. without a dynamic lead you can suck your thumb to find the right point to aim on.
the apfsds round of a western mbt will travel with a speed larger than 1600m/s on an extremely flat path. even if you don't hit the helicopter, your round will make some nice turbulences, which the helicopter pilot will never forget.

An APFSDS round will not be very effective against a helicopter. It will go through one side and outside the other. You would have to get pretty lucky for it to hit the engine.

If anything you would use something like a HESH or HE/HEP.

axl · 10-05-2003, 13:54 PM

the a-10 has no thermal sight, right? let it attack one target, but then it has to turn. why you guys can't believe that tanks track slow aerial targets? i know, the usa thinks about air superiority, but other armies don't.

with my base i mean the barracks where i have been stationed at that time. sorry if you are confused, it's actually not really mine...

regards
axl

Praxus · 10-05-2003, 13:59 PM

lol, yes the A-10 does have FLIR!
What do you think they made it so it couldn't operate at night??

An A-10 can knock out a tank at 27 kilometers with a Maverick!

By base I mean what base were you stationed at?

axl · 10-05-2003, 14:08 PM

i'm not the pilot, don't know too many details about the a-10. where is the flir mounted on the a-10? is it purely flir or has the pilot some possibilities to scan? what is the fov of the sight?

regards
axl

10-05-2003, 13:59 PM	#74 (permalink)
Praxus *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-26-03 Posts: 3,237	lol, yes the A-10 does have FLIR! What do you think they made it so it couldn't operate at night?? An A-10 can knock out a tank at 27 kilometers with a Maverick! By base I mean what base were you stationed at? Last edited by Praxus : 10-05-2003 at 14:08 PM.

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10-04-2003, 22:59 PM	#61 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	So in what military did you train on the M1A1, and what makes you think the tank you trained on was representitive of a typical US M-1? What nation did you serve for? Or is that too big a secret too...? BTW, i wouldn't serve in a modern tank, they're no more than rolling coffins when they go against well equipped and highly trained infantry in anytyhing but open terrain. Let alone what TACAIR and Rotary avaition do to them. Might as well ride around in a big neon bullseye.

10-05-2003, 05:03 AM	#62 (permalink)
axl Patron Join Date: 09-18-03 Posts: 242	you have no idea how tanks should be used, haven't you? tanks are not big targets, which move slowly and just wait that somebody kills them. tanks are also not alone, they are part of a combined force. ever seen how easy it is to aim a helicopter with a 120mm gun (its not more dificult with the russian 125mm one)? don't think all armed forces of the world are like the poor guys in the iraq. regards axl

10-05-2003, 08:30 AM	#63 (permalink)
Praxus *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-26-03 Posts: 3,237	An Apache Gunship can knock out enemy tanks at over 8km. This is about 3km beyond the range you could hit a helicopter. This is beyond the range of 20/25/30mm AAA. Or did you not know this? Now imagine being in a Russian tank, how do you avoid from being hit by an SBD that was released 40nm away and about 6 miles up? I don't know were you got the right to question his knowledge when you continue to ignore the question "What is your unit" and "What military did you serve for"?

10-05-2003, 08:43 AM	#64 (permalink)
axl Patron Join Date: 09-18-03 Posts: 242	what is the range the apache can designate targets on? what is the normal combat range in europe? all you are refering to is the max range of the longbow, but that is not what can be used in reality. what do you think how many ground units just wait that a helicopter is switching on its radar? how easy is it for the radar operator to distinguish between possible targets and ground interferences? marketing prospects are nice, but don't really show the reality. target identification from the apache can be done only visual on ranges not much larger than 2km. from the ground it is much easier to idetify a helicopter hanging in the sky than a tank on the ground somewhere in a static position and full of cammo. ever looked thru a thermal sight? regards axl

10-05-2003, 10:37 AM	#66 (permalink)
axl Patron Join Date: 09-18-03 Posts: 242	you are so sweet when you are angry... regards axl @admin: can you please correct it, i see that as a personal attack (see forum rules) Edit in by Mod. Not sure about Admins. But I also hate a potential Military faker. Answer the questions! Unit? MOS? Military? Rank?

10-05-2003, 10:51 AM	#67 (permalink)
Praxus *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-26-03 Posts: 3,237	How hard is it, to simply tell us what Unit you were in. You are continuely trying to avoid the question. So just answer it! I don't think the Admin is gonna side with an ass hole that says he is in the military but won't say what unit he is in.

10-05-2003, 12:49 PM	#68 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	"you have no idea how tanks should be used, haven't you? tanks are not big targets, which move slowly and just wait that somebody kills them. tanks are also not alone, they are part of a combined force. ever seen how easy it is to aim a helicopter with a 120mm gun (its not more dificult with the russian 125mm one)? don't think all armed forces of the world are like the poor guys in the iraq." Tell me Axl, when has an MBT EVER destroyed an attack helo with it's main gun in the entire history of warfare? It's never happened. Our DATs used to say the same stupid things, and we used to laugh at them too. But no, i have no idea how tanks should be used, i was only one of the eyes for the whole battalion, and the main body of our force was only commited to an axis of advance based on the Scout Platoon's continuing battlefield intelligence observations. So yeah, what do i know....? Sorry man, but you are coming across as a fraud. You made one too many 'BTDT' claims, and your steadfast reluctance to provide any service history smells of deception. You think i've never run across posers before? Make all sorts of claims, never ID their service history, and immediately start insulting others when the spotlight falls on them. Personally, i don't think you know a CVC from a track bar, unless you read about it in a book. BTW, even in Europe, an Apache will outrange an MBT easily. Helicopters do have the advantadge of vertical manuever you know.

10-05-2003, 13:09 PM	#69 (permalink)
axl Patron Join Date: 09-18-03 Posts: 242	you are totally right that no main battle tank ever shot down a helicopter. the reason is simply because no modern tanks were ever in a battle were they were able to do so. the usa is not training that (except with the mpat round), but during desert storm there were no iraqi helicopters available. a mbt needs a laser range finder and dynamic lead, without that its horribly difficult to do so. the israelian tankers i talked to confirmed that they are training to aim on helicopters. with the merk 3 baz its much easier, as it is equipped with a target tracking system. modern mbt, including russian t-80u/90, are able to hit helicopters, it depends only on the training. we tracked even the a-10. they came usually around to make targetting exercises on my base. i would never make the statement that a helicopter outranges a mbt. first the helicopter has to find the tank and that may be difficult. ever seen a german tank platoon when a helicopter comes in sight? four tanks tracking that one helicopter. and be sure, he does not know about it. regards axl

10-05-2003, 13:13 PM	#70 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	Axl, if you see an Apache at all, it's because the 58Delta has already vectored them in for the kill. If you can see them, they can almost definitely see you, and are probably already looking for you. Using the main gun for helo engagements is an act of desperation.

10-05-2003, 13:40 PM	#71 (permalink)
axl Patron Join Date: 09-18-03 Posts: 242	i don't think so. not always if somebody aims on you you are also looking for him. thermal sights are not perfect, but they are the best thing available. it is pretty easy to find a target in the open. covered targets are difficult. and as with the human eye, you find moving targets easier than static (as a sniper you shoudl know all that). helicopters don't hide in a static position, they move always. as tanks look from the ground, helicopters will have often the sky in the back. in addition helicopters can't switch off the the engines, tanks can. the rotor of a helicopter is always hot and can be spottet, as it is not something that you would expect, it's really easy to track. for helicopters its different. as it is moving fast, the sight will scan a wide area. the "data processing" is still done by a human gunner. and he is never able to really see everything. and tanks don't wait uncovered in the open. using the main gun against helicopters is a normal way of attacking a target. what other weapon should a main battle tank use? the aamg? a not stabilized and human guided 7.62 or 12.7mm weapon? sorry, but ww2 is long gone. you can try to attack flying targets on less than 1.000m and even then you will most of the time not hit. without a dynamic lead you can suck your thumb to find the right point to aim on. the apfsds round of a western mbt will travel with a speed larger than 1600m/s on an extremely flat path. even if you don't hit the helicopter, your round will make some nice turbulences, which the helicopter pilot will never forget. regrads axl

10-05-2003, 13:54 PM	#73 (permalink)
axl Patron Join Date: 09-18-03 Posts: 242	the a-10 has no thermal sight, right? let it attack one target, but then it has to turn. why you guys can't believe that tanks track slow aerial targets? i know, the usa thinks about air superiority, but other armies don't. with my base i mean the barracks where i have been stationed at that time. sorry if you are confused, it's actually not really mine... regards axl

10-05-2003, 14:08 PM	#75 (permalink)
axl Patron Join Date: 09-18-03 Posts: 242	i'm not the pilot, don't know too many details about the a-10. where is the flir mounted on the a-10? is it purely flir or has the pilot some possibilities to scan? what is the fov of the sight? regards axl

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