Type 90(Japanese) vs. Type 98(Chinese) - Page 3

**TopHatter** · 10-01-2003, 22:11 PM

Well, my thought was for just the Chinese tank and the Japanese tank to square off, either separately or against each other with MILES-type gear.
Obviously it wouldn't prove survivability, unless course they wanted to fire a live round or 3 against each other just for the hell of it

Anon · 10-01-2003, 23:24 PM

"sorry, but i experienced the difference between m1a1 and leo2a4 i don't say anymore that it is the same. it has the same caliber and can fire the same ammunition, but that's it. if i have to boresight the gun every 6-8 rounds i would never say the gun is equal to the german one."

What planet is that on Axl?

What an utterly ridiculous statement...

axl · 10-02-2003, 02:13 AM

my own experience, that's all. the usa licence produces the german gun. they did modifications and made something wrong. if you don't believe it, then just try official army or national guard simulators. even there you are forced to boresight. then go the german units and do the same there. the boresighting device is available for the leo2a4 (later models only), but normally you don't use it.

but proof me wrong, c'mon, try it. show me your experience with that topic, no prob.

regards
axl

Anon · 10-02-2003, 16:22 PM

Ummm, US Tank crews couldn't even complete their table IV qualifications if they had to boresight every 8 rds.

Certainly in ODS and OIF, this was not neccesary, nor was it neccesary for our IM-1's, nor for any of the M1A1HA's of the US 1st Cavalry division(i know this because two of my best friends were in the 1Cav- 1 as a gunner, the other as an M-1 turret mechanic.)

I believe you have fallen victom to some disinformation friend.

axl · 10-02-2003, 20:56 PM

disinformation? sorry man, i trained on m1a1 last year.

regards
axl

Praxus · 10-02-2003, 20:59 PM

Maybe the tank your were in had somethin broke.

I don't think Sniper would be lieing about it.

**TopHatter** · 10-02-2003, 21:24 PM

Axl
Out of curiousity and no disrespect intended, what outfit are you with?
I just saw a great show on the Discovery Channel (it was a rerun) on Marine Corps tankers going through the armor course at Fort Knox. Made me want to enlist and go armor! :8

**Officer of Engineers** · 10-02-2003, 21:46 PM

Trying to bridge some things here,

Having served in VII Corps which included British, Canadian, as well as American units. It was always the case of the lowest common demoninator - one of the reasons why the Canadian Trophy is no longer runned - everyone wants to raise the bar to their standards.

I was long gone when the M1s (never mind the Leo IIs) got introduced to VII Corps but one of the biggest complaints during the Canadian Trophy was the boresiting issue.

Simulators are exactly that - simulators. They're based upon theoritical reqs which are also based upon real life scenarios - does not mean the sims are correct which is the difference here I suspect.

Anon · 10-02-2003, 22:30 PM

M1A1's eh?

Well, you got a broke dick track cuz.

How do you qualify when you can't shoot more than 8rds?

Get out and boresight in the middile of the range session?

LOL....

What unit are you with?

axl · 10-03-2003, 07:42 AM

the time you need for boresighting depends on the experience of the gunner. i mean you don't have to go out. just switch the boresighting device on, align gun and sight, save it and go on with shooting.

regards
axl

Anon · 10-03-2003, 12:25 PM

How long does that process take?

axl · 10-03-2003, 12:30 PM

depends on the gunner, but not more than seconds.

regards
axl

Anon · 10-03-2003, 12:35 PM

Then i don't see it as a problem, since the reloading cycle is about 5 seconds anyway, which would explain why i've never heard a DAT say "These guns suck".

axl · 10-03-2003, 12:59 PM

haha, theretical number shaking. first of all you never know when it is time to boresight, you realize that when you switch on the device.
5 seconds for a reloading is a theretical value, it depends again on the loader. when i'm in an exercise and know that the targets come one after the other, the loader will stand beside the gun with the next round in his hand (as we did it). if you don't know when the next target will come up you will not do that. and never forget that you can expect constant loading times from a human loader.

small note at the end. you only learn that your stuff sux, if you are allowed to experience another one. i always thought the propulsion systems of leo2 and m1 were somewhat equal. but then i learned that the experience is more than "one is engine, one is turbine".

regards
axl

Anon · 10-03-2003, 23:11 PM

I take it you prefer the turbine?

I was ALWAYS impressed how close an Abrams could get before you hear it. Whispering death.

I know what you mean with human variables, believe me, they certainly existed in the sniping business.

10-01-2003, 22:11 PM	#31 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,693 Country:	Well, my thought was for just the Chinese tank and the Japanese tank to square off, either separately or against each other with MILES-type gear. Obviously it wouldn't prove survivability, unless course they wanted to fire a live round or 3 against each other just for the hell of it __________________ If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader. ~John Quincy Adams

10-02-2003, 21:46 PM	#38 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,915 Country:	Trying to bridge some things here, Having served in VII Corps which included British, Canadian, as well as American units. It was always the case of the lowest common demoninator - one of the reasons why the Canadian Trophy is no longer runned - everyone wants to raise the bar to their standards. I was long gone when the M1s (never mind the Leo IIs) got introduced to VII Corps but one of the biggest complaints during the Canadian Trophy was the boresiting issue. Simulators are exactly that - simulators. They're based upon theoritical reqs which are also based upon real life scenarios - does not mean the sims are correct which is the difference here I suspect. __________________ Chimo

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10-01-2003, 23:24 PM	#32 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	"sorry, but i experienced the difference between m1a1 and leo2a4 i don't say anymore that it is the same. it has the same caliber and can fire the same ammunition, but that's it. if i have to boresight the gun every 6-8 rounds i would never say the gun is equal to the german one." What planet is that on Axl? What an utterly ridiculous statement...

10-02-2003, 02:13 AM	#33 (permalink)
axl Patron Join Date: 09-18-03 Posts: 242	my own experience, that's all. the usa licence produces the german gun. they did modifications and made something wrong. if you don't believe it, then just try official army or national guard simulators. even there you are forced to boresight. then go the german units and do the same there. the boresighting device is available for the leo2a4 (later models only), but normally you don't use it. but proof me wrong, c'mon, try it. show me your experience with that topic, no prob. regards axl

10-02-2003, 16:22 PM	#34 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	Ummm, US Tank crews couldn't even complete their table IV qualifications if they had to boresight every 8 rds. Certainly in ODS and OIF, this was not neccesary, nor was it neccesary for our IM-1's, nor for any of the M1A1HA's of the US 1st Cavalry division(i know this because two of my best friends were in the 1Cav- 1 as a gunner, the other as an M-1 turret mechanic.) I believe you have fallen victom to some disinformation friend.

10-02-2003, 20:56 PM	#35 (permalink)
axl Patron Join Date: 09-18-03 Posts: 242	disinformation? sorry man, i trained on m1a1 last year. regards axl

10-02-2003, 20:59 PM	#36 (permalink)
Praxus *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-26-03 Posts: 3,237	Maybe the tank your were in had somethin broke. I don't think Sniper would be lieing about it.

10-02-2003, 21:24 PM	#37 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,693 Country:	Axl Out of curiousity and no disrespect intended, what outfit are you with? I just saw a great show on the Discovery Channel (it was a rerun) on Marine Corps tankers going through the armor course at Fort Knox. Made me want to enlist and go armor! :8

10-02-2003, 22:30 PM	#39 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	M1A1's eh? Well, you got a broke dick track cuz. How do you qualify when you can't shoot more than 8rds? Get out and boresight in the middile of the range session? LOL.... What unit are you with?

10-03-2003, 07:42 AM	#40 (permalink)
axl Patron Join Date: 09-18-03 Posts: 242	the time you need for boresighting depends on the experience of the gunner. i mean you don't have to go out. just switch the boresighting device on, align gun and sight, save it and go on with shooting. regards axl

10-03-2003, 12:25 PM	#41 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	How long does that process take?

10-03-2003, 12:30 PM	#42 (permalink)
axl Patron Join Date: 09-18-03 Posts: 242	depends on the gunner, but not more than seconds. regards axl

10-03-2003, 12:35 PM	#43 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	Then i don't see it as a problem, since the reloading cycle is about 5 seconds anyway, which would explain why i've never heard a DAT say "These guns suck".

10-03-2003, 12:59 PM	#44 (permalink)
axl Patron Join Date: 09-18-03 Posts: 242	haha, theretical number shaking. first of all you never know when it is time to boresight, you realize that when you switch on the device. 5 seconds for a reloading is a theretical value, it depends again on the loader. when i'm in an exercise and know that the targets come one after the other, the loader will stand beside the gun with the next round in his hand (as we did it). if you don't know when the next target will come up you will not do that. and never forget that you can expect constant loading times from a human loader. small note at the end. you only learn that your stuff sux, if you are allowed to experience another one. i always thought the propulsion systems of leo2 and m1 were somewhat equal. but then i learned that the experience is more than "one is engine, one is turbine". regards axl

10-03-2003, 23:11 PM	#45 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	I take it you prefer the turbine? I was ALWAYS impressed how close an Abrams could get before you hear it. Whispering death. I know what you mean with human variables, believe me, they certainly existed in the sniping business.

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