Triple C

As someone who had read so hard about World War II I am ashamed to ask this question, but Panzer IV ausf H has 80mm of armor at the front turret and hull, which in theory should protect it against the 75mm gun on the Sherman tank at ranges under 500 yards. So, why haven't I read anything about those damned invicible Panzer IV Hs? Why was it that no allied tanker had ever complained about Pz IV ausf H's thick, theoretically inpenetrable armor?

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jonnm

My dad was a tanker in ww2. He said everyone knew or least felt they had inferior equipment but they fought with what they had. Things were a little better balanced if they were using sabot ammo or had a 17lb equipped tank assigned to their troop. You have to remember also they usually were fighting SPs what fired and left.

He did say he heard complaints from American troops he had met because they had been told they were the best and best equiped only to find the Germans easily out gunning them.
Regards

Triple C

Unfortunately that doesn't answer the question.

Taken as a whole the allied forces fought with inferior tanks, of that there is little doubt. The Panther and the Tiger were all substanstially better tactical performers than the Sherman. Both were invulnerable to the 75mm gun armed Sherman tank's weaponry, the most common allied tank type, at the front, and the Tiger was also very well protected at the sides. Those two could also substantially outrange the 75mm gun armed Sherman, capable of destroying it in excess of 1,000 meters. Allied veterans were understandibly frustrated at this disadvantage. However, the most numerous medium tank type in the German army during 1944-45 period was the Panzer IV ausf H. The Germans have almost as many Panthers as they have aufs Hs, but Nothing indicates that the same technical superiority applied to Pz IVs. I have read some accounts about how allied troops were worried by the German 75mm L43/48 high velocity gun, which was superior their own 75mm at firefights over extended ranges, yet I have heard nothing--anything at all--about the failure of allied 75mm in killing a Panzer IV H at any range.

GraniteForge

One thing you need to remember is that, following doctrine, US tanks were not supposed to engage enemy tanks at all. Sure, it happened a lot, but the dedicated tank hunters were AT infantry and tank destroyers.

And no, Allied tanks were not at all inferior to Axis armor. On the contrary, Germany started the war with generally inferior tanks, and they fell further behind as the war went on.

Stan187

Taking as a whole such wide array of tanks an other equipment that changed and was updated every few months as well is inherrently both a dubious and fruitless exercize of brain power.

How can you even do that? How can you make such a judgement, factoring in all of the different tanks that each side had, and to what end?

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Triple C

I don't think I have expressed myself clearly. I would not be surprised that an American tank veteran in ETO felt outgunned by his adversaries because the large numbers of Panzer Vs fielded by 1944. What I find odd is that, though Pz IV H armor was supposed to be able to resist a hit from the US 75mm gun on paper, I have never find any evidence to support that. US tankers seem to consider combating Pz IVs an even fight, and I have never read anything pertaining to Pz IVs being invulnerable to tank fire.

el_guapo

German tanks weren't invulnerable. The rear was unprotected where the engine was. Tiger tank included. It took a number of Shermans to defeat a German tank, mainly by trying to out maneuver it to target the rear of the tank. Tanks were heavily protected on the sides, and front.


Bazookas targeted the same area as well. The weakest spot.

zraver

becuase every tank the allies killed was recorded as a panther or tiger. The M3 75mm AP could defeat the PzIV's armor at range, I don't know where your info is coming from.

This link shows the M61 APC defeating a 20mm shurzen and then passing through 50mm of armor U.S. Test No.1 it also shows the round defeating a 70mm plate at 30%= 81mm.

U.S. Test No.1

Foremost

Is this the one CCC? Panzer IV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia loads of info, enjoy!, 'spect you know that panzer is German for tank, so a Panzer tank is a tank tank, like Sahara desert is desert desert, ha ha, I'm a mine of information, some of it pretty useless!!

zraver

There where many types of German tanks to see action. While panzer was the generic term it was also short for Panzer Kampf wagon. Used in this sense it covered a number of tanks. Pz 1, PzII, Pz III, PzIV, PzV, PzVI, Pz 35, Pz38. There was also the Neubaufahrzueg V and VI and numerous foreign designs taken into service like the R-35 and T-34 usually given the designation ausfuhung (Auf) such as a the 4.7cm Pak (t) Auf 35R. These were just over designations of course, as each platform was likely to be used for a vareity of roles. For the PzIV this list is as follows

PzIV B,C,D,E, F short barreled 75mm, F2, G, H and J long barreled 75mm, stug IV assault gun, JPZ IV and IV/70 A or V tank destroyers, Ostwind and Whirblewind AAA tanks, Brumbar heavy gun, Hashorn heavy tank destroyer, Hummel SPA.

The offical way to list German vehicles was by thier model number. SdKfz or Sonderkraftfahrzeug (special purpose viehicle) here is wiki's list.

* SdKfz 2 (Kettenkrad light haftrack)
o SdKfz 2/1 (field cable-laying variant)
o SdKfz 2/2 (heavy cable-laying variant)
* SdKfz 3 (Maultier) half track cargo vehicle
o SdKfz 3a (Maultier based on 2 ton Opel trucks)
o SdKfz 3b (Maultier based on 2 ton Ford trucks)
o SdKfz 3c (Maultier based on 2 ton KHD trucks)
* SdKfz 4 (Maultier based on 4.5 ton trucks)
o SdKfz 4/1 (Maultier with 15 cm Nevelwerfer 42 rocket launcher)
* SdKfz 6 (5 ton medium halftrack for the engineers)
o SdKfz 6/1 (5 ton medium halftrack for the artillery)
o SdKfz 6/2 (self-propelled 37 mm antiaircraft gun)
* SdKfz 7 (8 ton medium halftrack)
o SdKfz 7/1 (self-propelled 20 mm quad antiaircraft gun)
o SdKfz 7/2 (self-propelled 37 mm antiaircraft gun)
* SdKfz 8 (12 ton heavy halftrack)
* SdKfz 9 (18 ton heavy halftrack)
o SdKfz 9/1 (halftrack mounted 6 ton crane)
o SdKfz 9/2 (halftrack mounted 10 ton crane)
* SdKfz 10 (1 ton light halftrack)
o SdKfz 10/1 (light gas detection vehicle)
o SdKfz 10/2 (light decontamination vehicle)
o SdKfz 10/3 (light decontamination sprayer vehicle)
o SdKfz 10/4 (self-propelled 20 mm Flak 30 antiaircraft gun)
o SdKfz 10/5 (self-propelled 20 mm Flak 38 antiaircraft gun)
* SdKfz 11 (3 ton light halftrack)
o SdKfz 11/1 (smoke-generation vehicle)
o SdKfz 11/2 (medium decontamination vehicle)
o SdKfz 11/3 (medium decontamination spraying vehicle)
o SdKfz 11/4 (smoke-generation vehicle)
o SdKfz 11/5 (medium gas detection vehicle)
* SdKfz 101 (Panzer I Ausf. A/B light tank)
* SdKfz 111 (Panzer I ammunition carrier variant)
* SdKfz 121 (Panzer II Ausf. A to F light tank)
* SdKfz 122 (Panzer II "Flammingo" flamethrower tank)
* SdKfz 123 (Panzer II Ausf. L reconnaissance tank)
* SdKfz 124 (Wespe self-propelled 105 mm artillery)
* SdKfz 131 (Marder II self-propelled 75 mm antitank gun)
* SdKfz 132 (Marder II self-propelled 76.2 mm antitank gun )
* SdKfz 135 (captured Lorraine Tracteur Blinde tracked carrier)
o SdKfz 135/1 (self-propelled 150 mm howitzer)
* SdKfz 138 (Marder III self-propelled 75 mm antitank gun)
o SdKfz 138/1 (Grille self-propelled 150 mm infantry gun)
* SdKfz 139 (Marder III self-propelled 76.2 mm antitank gun)
* SdKfz 140 (Flakpanzer 38(t) self-propelled 20 mm anti-aircraft gun on a Panzer 38(t) chassis)
o SdKfz 140/1 (armored reconnaissance vehicle based on the Panzer 38(t))
* SdKfz 141 (Panzer III medium tank with 37 mm or 50 mm L/42 main gun)
o SdKfz 141/1 (Panzer III medium tank with 50 mm L/60 main gun)
o SdKfz 141/2 (Panzer III medium tank with 75 mm L/24 main gun)
* SdKfz 142 (StuG III assault gun with 75 mm L/24 main gun)
o SdKfz 142/1 (StuG III assault gun with 75 mm L/43 or L/48 main gun)
o SdKfz 142/2 (StuH 42 assault gun with 105 mm L/28 main gun)
* SdKfz 143 (Panzer III based artillery observation post)
* SdKfz 161 (Panzer IV medium tank with 75 mm L/24 main gun)
o SdKfz 161/1 (Panzer IV medium tank with 75 mm L/43 main gun)
o SdKfz 161/2 (Panzer IV medium tank with 75 mm L/48 main gun)
o SdKfz 161/3 (Möbelwagen self-propelled 37 mm antiaircraft gun)
* SdKfz 162 (Panzer IV based tank destroyer with 75 mm L/48 main gun) Jagdpanzer IV
o SdKfz 162/1 (Panzer IV based tank destroyer with 75 mm L/70 main gun) Jagdpanzer IV
* SdKfz 164 (Nashorn tank destroyer with 88 mm L/71 main gun)
* SdKfz 165 (Hummel self-propelled 150 mm artillery)
* SdKfz 166 (Brummbär self-propelled 150 mm infantry gun)
* SdKfz 167 (StuG IV assault gun with 75 mm L/48 main gun)
* SdKfz 171 (Panther tank main battle tank)
* SdKfz 172 (Panther tank proposed assault gun variant)
* SdKfz 173 (Jagdpanther tank destroyer)
* SdKfz 179 (Panther tank recovery variant)
* SdKfz 181 (Tiger I heavy tank)
* SdKfz 182 (Tiger II heavy tank)
* SdKfz 184 (Elefant tank destroyer)
* SdKfz 185 (Jagdtiger tank destroyer with 88 mm L/71 main gun)
* SdKfz 186 (Jagdtiger tank destroyer with 128 mm L/55 main gun)
* SdKfz 205 (Panzer VIII Maus super heavy tank - only reached prototype stage)
* SdKfz 221 (Leichter Panzerspähwagen with 7.92 mm machinegun)
* SdKfz 222 (Leichter Panzerspähwagen with 20 mm L/55 main gun)
* SdKfz 223 (Leichter Panzerspähwagen with radio gear)
* SdKfz 231 6-rad (Schwerer Panzerspähwagen (6 wheel) with 20 mm L/55 main gun)
* SdKfz 231 8-rad (Schwerer Panzerspähwagen (8 wheel) with 20 mm L/55 main gun)
* SdKfz 232 6-rad (Schwerer Panzerspähwagen (6 wheel) with radio gear)
* SdKfz 232 8-rad (Schwerer Panzerspähwagen (8 wheel) with radio gear)
* SdKfz 233 (Schwerer Panzerspähwagen with 50 mm main gun)
* SdKfz 234 (Schwerer Panzerspähwagen)
o SdKfz 234/1 (Schwerer Panzerspähwagen with 20 mm L/55 gun)
o SdKfz 234/2 (Schwerer Panzerspähwagen with 50 mm L/60 gun)
o SdKfz 234/3 (Schwerer Panzerspähwagen with 75 mm L/24 gun)
o SdKfz 234/4 (Schwerer Panzerspähwagen with 75 mm L/46 gun)
* SdKfz 247 (armored staff car)
* SdKfz 250 (armored light halftrack)
o SdKfz 250/1 (light armored halftrack with communications gear)
o SdKfz 250/2 (light armored halftrack with cable-laying gear)
o SdKfz 250/3 (light armored halftrack with radio gear)
o SdKfz 250/4 (light armored halftrack with twin antiaircraft machineguns)
o SdKfz 250/5 (light armored halftrack observation post)
o SdKfz 250/6 (light armored halftrack reconnaissance vehicle)
o SdKfz 250/7 (light armored halftrack mortar carrier)
o SdKfz 250/8 (light armored halftrack with 75 mm L/24 gun)
o SdKfz 250/9 (light armored halftrack with 20 mm L/55 gun)
o SdKfz 250/10 (light armored halftrack with 37 mm antitank gun)
o SdKfz 250/11 (light armored halftrack with 28 mm antitank gun)
o SdKfz 250/12 (light armored halftrack for survey crews)
* SdKfz 251 (medium armored halftrack)
o SdKfz 251/1 (medium armored halftrack with communications gear)
o SdKfz 251/2 (medium armored halftrack mortar carrier)
o SdKfz 251/3 (medium armored halftrack with radio gear)
o SdKfz 251/4 (medium armored halftrack tractor for infantry guns)
o SdKfz 251/5 (medium armored halftrack for engineers)
o SdKfz 251/6 (medium armored halftrack command post)
o SdKfz 251/7 (medium armored halftrack for engineers)
o SdKfz 251/8 (medium armored halftrack ambulance)
o SdKfz 251/9 (medium armored halftrack with 75 mm L/24 gun)
o SdKfz 251/10 (medium armored halftrack with 37 mm antitank gun)
o SdKfz 251/11 (medium armored halftrack with telephone equipment)
o SdKfz 251/12 (medium armored halftrack with survey gear)
o SdKfz 251/13 (medium armored halftrack with artillery sound recording gear)
o SdKfz 251/14 (medium armored halftrack with artillery sound ranging gear)
o SdKfz 251/15 (medium armored halftrack with artillery flash spotting gear)
o SdKfz 251/16 (medium armored halftrack with flamethrower)
o SdKfz 251/17 (medium armored halftrack with 20 mm L/55 gun)
o SdKfz 251/18 (medium armored halftrack observation post)
o SdKfz 251/19 (medium armored halftrack with telephone exchange gear)
o SdKfz 251/20 (medium armored halftrack with infrared searchlight)
o SdKfz 251/21 (medium armored halftrack with triple MG151 15 mm or 20 mm guns)
o SdKfz 251/22 (medium armored halftrack with 75 mm L/46 Pak-40 gun)
o SdKfz 251/23 (medium armored halftrack reconnaissance vehicle - possibly never produced. Was to have a 20mm gun in turret similar to SdKfz 234/1)
* SdKfz 252 (light halftrack ammunition carrier)
* SdKfz 253 (light halftrack observation post)
* SdKfz 254 (medium track or wheel observation post)
* SdKfz 260 (light armored radio car)
* SdKfz 261 (light armored radio car)
* SdKfz 263 6-rad (heavy armored radio car - 6 wheel)
* SdKfz 263 8-rad (heavy armored radio car - 8 wheel)
* SdKfz 265 (Panzer I command tank)
* SdKfz 266 (Panzer III command tanks with FuG 6 and FuG 2 radios)
* SdKfz 267 (Panzer III, Panther tank, and Tiger I command tanks with FuG 6 and FuG 8 radios)
* SdKfz 268 (Panzer III, Panther tank, and Tiger I command tanks with FuG 6 and FuG 7 radios)
* SdKfz 300 (Minenräumwagen remote-control mine destroyer)
* SdKfz 301 (Borgward B IV heavy remote-control demolition layer)
* SdKfz 302 (Goliath vehicle light remote-control demolition vehicle)
* SdKfz 303 (Goliath vehicle light remote-control demolition vehicle)
* SdKfz 304 (Springer vehicle medium remote-control demolition vehicle)

Foremost

Wow, but I guess I helped though didn't I?? ha ha!

kato

Also the Möbelwagen and Kugelblitz AAA tanks. There were also a number of attempts with 105mm howitzers, but none of those got beyond prototype stage.

Triple C

My sources didn't say so. My sources say that the Pz IV was barely better or marginaly inferior to 75mm Sherman and T-34-76. When I was in a web forum some guy insisted that the Pz IV was inpenetrable; thinking back, he probably arrived to that conclusion without knowing that the Pz IVH's turret was not uparmored.

Foremost

The British "Challenger" is awesome, in the Iraqi war they fired spent uranium shells which could penetrate the thickest of armour exploding inside & spraying the crew with molten metal & sometimes even blowing the turret clean off, the firing these shells was abandoned when some British crews were quite badly affected by handling the shells as they loaded them.

glyn

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