US Army Gets New Rifle? - Page 6

Spitzer · 01-08-2008, 21:17 PM

The Germans don't spend more money making the gun if that's what you're implying.

**Officer of Engineers** · 01-08-2008, 22:21 PM

Oh for Pete's Sakes!!!!

For Half the cost of the German Gun, the Americans achieved 90% of the German gun's performance!

Get it Now?

Albany Rifles · 01-08-2008, 22:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Oh for Pete's Sakes!!!!

For Half the cost of the German Gun, the Americans achieved 90% of the German gun's performance!

Get it Now?

Time to go taste some of your scotch!!! Make it single malt.

Silly me...I guess I'll stop using logic.

The Germans don't spend more money making the gun if that's what you're implying.

Nope, not them, uh uh, no way, not the nation which used machined brass safety pins in their land mines during WW II instead of those cheap cotter pins. Nope,not those guys!

Okay, I am off to joust at windmills!

gunnut · 01-09-2008, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

Nope, not them, uh uh, no way, not the nation which used machined brass safety pins in their land mines during WW II instead of those cheap cotter pins. Nope,not those guys!

Wow that's pretty lavish on a one shot weapon. What's next? Machined receivers rather than stamped? Wait...

Spitzer · 01-09-2008, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Oh for Pete's Sakes!!!!

For Half the cost of the German Gun, the Americans achieved 90% of the German gun's performance!

Get it Now?

Err, no. The German gun isn't more expensive, its just more expensive for the Americans to make to the exact same specs, so they redesigned it slightly creating the M256, which performance is identical to the Rheinmetall L/44.

Why is everyone getting hostile all of a sudden ??? I'm not saying the M256 sucks, its the same as the German L/44 for crying out loud!

Also what's with the landmines ? What does that have to do with anything ??

gunnut · 01-09-2008, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitzer

Also what's with the landmines ? What does that have to do with anything ??

He's trying to show you that Germans have a tendency to make things unnecessarily complex and intricate. A safety pin used in a landmine, a very cheap, crude, single use weapon, could and should be made by cheap methods. Instead Germans treat it like a Swiss watch by giving it a machined part.

Look at the guns made by HK. Each of them is a work of art. I love German guns. I own 3 Sig pistols. Each of them is more expensive than a comparable Glock, or a Berreta, or a Smith, or a CZ. That's OK. I'm just a collector. But think about a military force that needs half a million rifles at a time. The cost will become significant.

Military is always short on funds, even the US military. If we can get 90% of the performance at 50% of the cost, we'll do it. Especially if it involves NOT switching the entire arsenal to a new weapon.

ofogs · 01-09-2008, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShawnG

The key is proper maintenance on both the weapon AND the magazines. And then the folks who watch too many war movies and bang the mags off their ACH before loading... breaking a weld or two that holds the mag together...

Yep. Everybody forgets about cleaning their mags. As I mentioned, those can be a huge point of failure and might be easier to improve than the M4 itself. I replaced my followers to one that won't tip. A couple of my guys went out and actually bought the HK mags, although, if you look hard enough, you can find them in the supply system

.

bfng3569 · 01-09-2008, 17:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitzer

I don't see how my conclusion was wrong Albany rifles. It clearly says that "US studies on the gun concluded it was overly complex and expensive by American engineering standards"

Complex by engineering standards means that problems are highly likely going to arise in producing the product to the same specs as the original, which IS expensive. However the bottom line is that the Rheinmetall L/44 & M256 are completely identical in terms of performance on all aspects, precision, firepower etc etc..

Ummm, no.

ShawnG · 01-09-2008, 17:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ofogs

Yep. Everybody forgets about cleaning their mags. As I mentioned, those can be a huge point of failure and might be easier to improve than the M4 itself. I replaced my followers to one that won't tip. A couple of my guys went out and actually bought the HK mags, although, if you look hard enough, you can find them in the supply system

.

No kidding... I'm talking to my Supply Guy

**Officer of Engineers** · 01-09-2008, 18:01 PM

Just don't ask where he gets it.

ShawnG · 01-10-2008, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Just don't ask where he gets it.

I never ask questions, haha

Spitzer · 01-15-2008, 22:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

He's trying to show you that Germans have a tendency to make things unnecessarily complex and intricate. A safety pin used in a landmine, a very cheap, crude, single use weapon, could and should be made by cheap methods. Instead Germans treat it like a Swiss watch by giving it a machined part.

Look at the guns made by HK. Each of them is a work of art. I love German guns. I own 3 Sig pistols. Each of them is more expensive than a comparable Glock, or a Berreta, or a Smith, or a CZ. That's OK. I'm just a collector. But think about a military force that needs half a million rifles at a time. The cost will become significant.

Military is always short on funds, even the US military. If we can get 90% of the performance at 50% of the cost, we'll do it. Especially if it involves NOT switching the entire arsenal to a new weapon.

I have no disagreement here, I agree completely.

I just can't really understand why the XM8 was dropped, and now that it is I was thinking about the G-36 as perhaps another option if it could be produced cheaply in the states. HK's version of the AR-15 looks promising though..

The reason behind my thoughts is that the US and many other countries seem to buy/borrow technology more often from each other these days. For example many MBT's have moved over to not only the Leopard 2's gun but its MTU engine as-well, and the Abrams is next. The Challenger 2 is to have the Leo's L/55 gun as-well as the MTU engine. Furthermore the British, Germans & Spanish co-operated on the EF2000, and many countries today are deciding wether to purchase the EF2000, Lockheed's F-35 JSF or Sweden's Gripen fighter. Just to name a few..

**Officer of Engineers** · 01-15-2008, 23:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitzer

I just can't really understand why the XM8 was dropped,

It's already been answered. Too expensive for the marginal gain that it represents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitzer

and now that it is I was thinking about the G-36 as perhaps another option if it could be produced cheaply in the states. HK's version of the AR-15 looks promising though..

And it is obvious that you've never served in a National HQ. The G-36 was introduced way too late in the game - long after the M4 was introduced and committed to. There is absolutely no reason why the US should cancel the M4 contract and pay the penalty just to switch over the G-36. It ain't worth it.

Albany Rifles · 01-15-2008, 23:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

It's already been answered. Too expensive for the marginal gain that it represents.

And it is obvious that you've never served in a National HQ. The G-36 was introduced way too late in the game - long after the M4 was introduced and committed to. There is absolutely no reason why the US should cancel the M4 contract and pay the penalty just to switch over the G-36. It ain't worth it.

I see you have chosen to be my Sancho Pansa to go after this windmill!!!

**Officer of Engineers** · 01-15-2008, 23:47 PM

Honestly, I do like the music.

01-08-2008, 22:21 PM	#77 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,915 Country:	Oh for Pete's Sakes!!!! For Half the cost of the German Gun, the Americans achieved 90% of the German gun's performance! Get it Now? __________________ Chimo

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01-08-2008, 21:17 PM	#76 (permalink)
Spitzer New Member Join Date: 01-04-08 Posts: 23 Country:	The Germans don't spend more money making the gun if that's what you're implying.

01-09-2008, 18:01 PM	#85 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,915 Country:	Just don't ask where he gets it.

01-15-2008, 23:47 PM	#90 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,915 Country:	Honestly, I do like the music.

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