US Army Gets New Rifle? - Page 2

JA Boomer · 12-22-2007, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

The point is is there a better rifle that would justify the cost of switching over and again, until you moved off the 5.56 round, the benefits ain't there to switch over.

Well...it may well be justified if soldiers and marines are being put in unneccessary danger and folks are dying because the current weapons are 'only slightly' less capable than those that could be fielded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyBattleship

The insurgents, Taliban, Al Quaida, Hamas, terrorists, or whatever you call them are not co-signers of the Geneva Convention (actually a horribly outdated document in this century). So, I say anything goes. If a GI wants to use a Ruger Mini-14 instead of an M-16 - give him the parts he needs, he already has the ammo. If he wants to use a Ruger Deerslayer in .44 magnum - give it to him. If a tank crew wants some anti-personnel rounds loaded with short lengths of tow chain (ancient cannister shot) - give it to them (see the Mythbusters episode where a round of chain shot completely destroys a pig carcass). If an Infantryman wants to carry a couple of magazines of incendiary shot - give it to him. If a unit commander wants to use that "Ray Gun" that makes a gathering of suspects feel like they are burning up - give it to them (presently the Pentagon has "officially" refused to deliver this item).

So your Platoon looks like a bunch of Pancho Villa's bandits with a very mixed array of weapons. If they are comfortable, confident and efficient with them, their chances of getting back for a class photo is greatly increase

While I agree, there are arguments to be made for supply, maintenaince, ammunition, and other concerns that have serious benefits for common weapons being distributed and outfitted within units.

**Officer of Engineers** · 12-22-2007, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JA Boomer

Well...it may well be justified if soldiers and marines are being put in unneccessary danger and folks are dying because the current weapons are 'only slightly' less capable than those that could be fielded.

Don't buy that argument. The C7 is rated as one of the best rifle on earth and that is an M-16. And others have shown, weapons discipline is the answer to most of the stated problems.

I've seen bad H&Ks before. They are no more immune to abuse than any other weapon except those manufactured specifically to take abuse, ie the Kalashnikovs.

omon · 12-22-2007, 09:12 AM

ar, m4 problem is tight tolarances, low bolt weight, take ak gas piston, bolt group, it is 2x as heavy, has more momentum, shake ak and it,ll rattle(some more some less), that is the secret of ak reliabuility, but accurasy is a trade off. ar, m4 got everything other way around.
i ve shot quite a few ar's, on the range thou, had almost no malfunctions, great rifle, when clean.
also ar's mags are not as rigid as ak, the lips on the mag, very thin, easy to damage,

Maxor · 12-22-2007, 09:45 AM

I've shot a fair number of m-16's and M-4's I've had good and bad examples of both. They both seem to be a little on the picky side when it comes to feed issues, and magizines that will work in one gun in my experiance may not work perfectly in the next though in both cases the guns and mags were nearing the end of their useful life.The US army has thousands of these sitting in inventory. There are better guns out there at this point even some that are as or more accurate that are a bit less picky when it comes to jamming and ammo feed however their jaming rate isn't enough better to likely make a large amount of difference in most cases. Also most of these so called jams take about a second to get corrected with the sport proceedure every american military memeber has drilled into their head in basic. As crappy as this sounds it is not cost effective to replace a good enough rifle at this point to get one that isonly slightly better.

Zaphael · 12-22-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Over 20 yrs in and can count on one hand the number of jams from M-16A1s and A2s.

The problem that you stated above comes from not having your magazine seated properly. Not an M-16 problem.

You're probably right on that. The magazines we used were pretty old, and probably older than myself. Heck the rifle was older than me.

We'd slap our magazines in tight, but those no-feed or half feeds kept coming. The only other reason I could think of was that those mags had pretty bad springs.

Anyway, we moved away from the M-16. Our new rifle is heavy as hell but a 5 year old kid could hit a target 150meters away with it. I've yet to get a chance to rough it out with it, probably next year when I go back for my training cycle. Looking forward to it too!

omon · 12-22-2007, 13:17 PM

there was limited numbers of m4 converted to use ak ammo and mags, i,ve seen it in iirc guns and ammo mag, i wonder if anyone here saw them in person

Zaphael · 12-22-2007, 15:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omon

there was limited numbers of m4 converted to use ak ammo and mags, i,ve seen it in iirc guns and ammo mag, i wonder if anyone here saw them in person

You mean this weapon?

SR-47 (Stoner Rifle 47)

Its an SR-47. A remarkable piece of engineering and idea!

Stan187 · 12-22-2007, 17:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaphael

You mean this weapon?

SR-47 (Stoner Rifle 47)

Its an SR-47. A remarkable piece of engineering and idea!

Something the shoots AK rounds but doesn't have the same reliability? Why not just outfit the troops with distinctive looking AKs (so as not to get mistaken for insurgents by friendlies) and call it a day. There are plenty of American companies now manufacturing some high quality clones.

omon · 12-22-2007, 18:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaphael

You mean this weapon?

SR-47 (Stoner Rifle 47)

Its an SR-47. A remarkable piece of engineering and idea!

yes that is the one,

Feanor · 12-22-2007, 18:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan187

There are plenty of American companies now manufacturing some high quality clones.

Cheeky bastards!!! And you blame us for having factories making fake DVDs of American movies.

omon · 12-22-2007, 18:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor

Cheeky bastards!!! And you blame us for having factories making fake DVDs of American movies.

relax, if it is quality ak, than it is either based on vepr reciver(still made in russia), or milled slr, i,m not aware of single us company that makes quality ak clones. customizers yes, manufacturers no.

Feanor · 12-22-2007, 18:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omon

relax, if it is quality ak, than it is either based on vepr reciver(still made in russia), or milled slr, i,m not aware of single us company that makes quality ak clones. customizers yes, manufacturers no.

Doesn't Bulgarian Arsenal firm do it?

omon · 12-22-2007, 18:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor

Doesn't Bulgarian Arsenal firm do it?

yea, they make slr's, second best after vepr
slr best ak with ak reciver
vepr best ak with rpk reciver

RustyBattleship · 12-23-2007, 18:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JA Boomer

While I agree, there are arguments to be made for supply, maintenaince, ammunition, and other concerns that have serious benefits for common weapons being distributed and outfitted within units.

That's only because our military supply system is bogged down in volumes of regulatory books and micro-management every step of the way.

Now if we conscript FEDEX and/or UPS to take over the supply system ----- .

"You want 20,000 rounds of .444 Marlin ammo? With magnesium tracer pills in the bases? Overnight? No problem. Already have your address logged in on our GPS computer. Just have enough guys to unload as we have to get some M-1928-A4 Thompson SMGs in .44 Automag over to the next Brigade."

Yeah, the weapons I visualize may be fantastic, but the idea is that I think turning over our supply system to private companies that have SPEED OF DELIVERY already worked out will get our GIs anything they want any time they want it.

Stan187 · 12-23-2007, 19:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor

Cheeky bastards!!! And you blame us for having factories making fake DVDs of American movies.

I don't blame. I have a factory putting out fake DVDs as well. Its called, my CD burner

12-22-2007, 09:12 AM	#18 (permalink)
omon Field mechanik *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-01-06 Location: bk Posts: 1,793 Country:	ar, m4 problem is tight tolarances, low bolt weight, take ak gas piston, bolt group, it is 2x as heavy, has more momentum, shake ak and it,ll rattle(some more some less), that is the secret of ak reliabuility, but accurasy is a trade off. ar, m4 got everything other way around. i ve shot quite a few ar's, on the range thou, had almost no malfunctions, great rifle, when clean. also ar's mags are not as rigid as ak, the lips on the mag, very thin, easy to damage, __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

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12-22-2007, 09:45 AM	#19 (permalink)
Maxor *Military Professional* Join Date: 11-18-05 Posts: 283	I've shot a fair number of m-16's and M-4's I've had good and bad examples of both. They both seem to be a little on the picky side when it comes to feed issues, and magizines that will work in one gun in my experiance may not work perfectly in the next though in both cases the guns and mags were nearing the end of their useful life.The US army has thousands of these sitting in inventory. There are better guns out there at this point even some that are as or more accurate that are a bit less picky when it comes to jamming and ammo feed however their jaming rate isn't enough better to likely make a large amount of difference in most cases. Also most of these so called jams take about a second to get corrected with the sport proceedure every american military memeber has drilled into their head in basic. As crappy as this sounds it is not cost effective to replace a good enough rifle at this point to get one that isonly slightly better.

12-22-2007, 13:17 PM	#21 (permalink)
omon Field mechanik *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-01-06 Location: bk Posts: 1,793 Country:	there was limited numbers of m4 converted to use ak ammo and mags, i,ve seen it in iirc guns and ammo mag, i wonder if anyone here saw them in person

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