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A Shattering of Military Tradition- London Daily Telegraph

My attention was caught by this story (courtesy of SWJ). U.S. Army forces have never made much of units coming or going. We've seen divisions and regiments raised, colors stored, units re-flagged, etc. until our eyeballs spin.

Most troops and more than a few officers have only a quesy knowledge of their unit's battle lineage, with notable exceptions. At least that's been my impression. Many of our officers and troops have come to admire the more martial institutional memories of our U.S. Marines and commonwealth allies.

This all stems from the British regimental system. It would seem from this article that tradition is now in disarray, if not threatened with near-extinction. Evidently, the needs of the service- specifically the various battalions formed from the amalgamated Scottish regiments, over-ride the battalion enlistment preferences of young Scottish soldiers. So much so that it has become an element in the discussion surrounding declining enlistments from Scotland.

Gentlemen, what's going on here and how significant is the issue?

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"This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

glyn

[quote=S-2;408373]

This all stems from the British regimental system. It would seem from this article that tradition is now in disarray, if not threatened with near-extinction.

I'm afraid our tried and trusted system is in the greatest jeopardy, thanks to our ghastly New Labour government. My views on them are as strong as Bluesmans on the Democrats. They are not to be trusted, they have no military experience themselves. What they know about service traditions and esprit-de-Corps could be put on a single childs hair with a lump of coal. Nothing!

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Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

Ray

The anguish is understandable.

The Regimental System of the British Army and followed by the Commonwealth countries like India is an excellent system that ensures camaraderie, loyalty and character qualities that does well in combat.

The feeling is that of being a part of the Family.

If one should even club different types of units but not of the same Regiment and yet of the same community/ clan, it is not the same thing because Regimental Traditions and ethos will be different

Even in regiment, there are units that make up the Regiment. If one is posted (as officers can be posted) to another unit of the same Regiment, it breaks the heart since it is like being sent away from the Family!

I left by unit in 1999 and yet I will be joining them Sep end as many other officers (at our own expense and serving officers who have been posted out of the unit will have to, in addition, take leave), for our Raising Day (a three day affair of history, nostalgia and reminiscing, apart from having a jolly)!

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"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

dave lukins

I hope you have a good time Brigadier Sir...Yash Sidhi

Bluesman

[quote=glyn;408400]Even IF bean-counting liberals were good at efficiency (they're usually not), when they start mucking around with the military, they'll almost always do the exact Wrong Thing, so much so that it begins to look like a deliberate attempt to damage an institution they instinctively hate. I have watched in growing horror and disgust successive Labour governments do massive damage to their own armed forces, and I remember well when the RAF were forced to admit that they could no longer adequately defend British aerial boundaries. The Army, after being repeatedly buffetted by 'efficiency' measures that gutted what was, let's face it, the best part of the British Army's heart, soul and fighting spirit - it's regimental traditions and self-identities - I do believe the UK's armed forces are so eroded in the loss of the 'old' that no amount of the 'new' - modern equipment, high technology, etc. - would offset it...even if they got what they needed, which, it should be noted, a parsimonious (at least as far as defense spending goes, anyway) Labour government won't provide, either.

Traditions and identities that bind men to their military families are important, much more important than their equipment or even quality-of-life issues like pay and quarters, and anybody that has no experience of long military service just doesn't 'get' that. Ask the Marines; they get their men from the the same places the other US forces get theirs, and they're considered better troops. WHY is that? Because of the traditions of the Corps, their history, their sense of upholding a reputation. PRIDE is the one word that it comes down to.

And the British have traded theirs for a lower defense tab. What a shame.

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"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

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"Thus, a recruit from Perth could opt for The Black Watch, someone from Inverness, the Highlanders, someone from Glasgow the RHF and so on.

That, at least, was the theory and was also what most politicians and those who campaigned on behalf of the regiments understood by the Golden Thread, as it was advocated by the likes of General Sir Mike Jackson, former chief of the general staff, and Major General Euan Loudon, then the senior Army officer in Scotland.

However, it turns out that, like other promises made at the time of the merger, this one concerning recruitment also turns out to be not worth the paper it wasn't - unfortunately - printed on. In a letter to fellow generals and other senior officers, the new honorary colonel of the Royal Regiment of Scotland, Maj-Gen Andrew Graham, indicates that far from being allowed to join their battalion of choice, new recruits would be held in a pool and "will go to the battalion that is most in need".

Thus is one of the most important strands of the Golden Thread broken. And while it is understandable for opposition politicians to blame the Government for this breach of faith, it is more accurate to relate that it was senior officers, like Gens Jackson and Loudon, as well as Lt Gen Alistair Irwin, formerly colonel-commandant of the Scottish Division, who made most of the merits of this link with tradition. But if this link is being constantly eroded by the actions of senior officers, what price the maintenance of regional regimental identities?"

Glyn said-

"They are not to be trusted, they have no military experience themselves. What they know about service traditions and esprit-de-Corps could be put on a single childs hair with a lump of coal. Nothing!"

Glyn,

Cochrane seems to think the issue here rests as much with the Army as the politicians. Here, at least, the generals have the experience and are the guarantors of any existing service tradition. Any truth to Alan Cochrane's contention in your view?

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Brigadier,

"If one should even club different types of units but not of the same Regiment and yet of the same community/ clan, it is not the same thing because Regimental Traditions and ethos will be different

Even in regiment, there are units that make up the Regiment. If one is posted (as officers can be posted) to another unit of the same Regiment, it breaks the heart since it is like being sent away from the Family!"

Brigadier,

The Royal Regiment of Scotland is itself an amalgamation. Four battalions created from five Scottish regiments- the King's Own Scottish Borderers, the Royal Highland Fusiliers, the Highlanders, the Black Watch, and the Argyll and Sutherlanders.

To that extent, it might already be construed a tragedy by some.

dave lukins

Well said Glyn and Bluesman Cyclops with a squint could have seen this coming in a sand storm But the Sheep that lead the Lions seem to be oblivious to our traditions. Some of these Regiments have been together for hundreds of years..generations of families in the same Regiment..ended with a stroke of a pen Government and the "Yes" men should hang their heads in shame

Officer of Engineers

What is wrong with raising a new Regiment of Scotts and relegate the other regts back to the TA? The Battle Honours are preserved and recruiting goals reduced,

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Chimo

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Brigadier,

Your posted article stated,

"Key elements of the regimental system are the Colonel and the Colonel-in-Chief. With roots going back to the 18th century when colonels owned and equipped their regiments, the Colonel of today is the head of the family and responsible for the protection of the best interests of the regiment."

I didn't see it at first, but was struck by the role the current Honorary Colonel, Maj. General Andrew Graham seems to be playing in this affair.

dave lukins

To the Jocks it's akin to inviting Guy Faulks to a BBQ. Tradition Tradition Tradition. You can almost taste the feelings amongst the different Regiments.

glyn

[quote=S-2;408419]

Glyn,

Cochrane seems to think the issue here rests as much with the Army as the politicians. Here, at least, the generals have the experience and are the guarantors of any existing service tradition. Any truth to Alan Cochrane's contention in your view?

I would love to be able to say that there isn't a shred of truth in what he said. Unfortunately I can't. It does seem that a number of senior officers have been playing politics and doing deals behind the scenes, and I am greatly saddened that the Army which I knew and loved has descended to this. I hardly know what to think now. I do not have a high opinion of Jackson, as while he was agreeing with the Treasury and their political masters about the re-organisation (read: cheaper for the government) of the Army it is notable that HIS Brigade of Guards emerged entirely unscathed. What he should have been fighting for was the line infantry, as they are the ones that have been cut to the bone as well as being the ones in greatest demand with all the commitments they have. The Army Air Corps should have been expanded instead of being the subject of recent cuts. They have also been informed that their numbers will be further reduced as will the size of the helicopter fleet. The AAC are the best protection and 'force multiplier' the Infantry has.

Cactus

Brig. Ray,

From an outsider's understanding I had felt that the Indian Army and government were pretty much disappointed with the whole Regimental System's performance in modern war after 1962, but instead of risking disposing it (RS plays an important role in training and administration, I believe) they just proceded to dilute it. Is there any truth to it?

To gauge if and how the thinking trend has changed, could you humor this scenario? Faced with a major, non-local, long-term threat what line of thought would senior Indian leaders follow: Raising and/or converting existing units to more Function-Oriented regiments like Para, Mech or Guards? Or would they prefer to raise new class or region based regiments as they did before?

PS: We can move this conversation to South Asian Defense forum if you wish.

Cactus

I thought Gen. Jackson was from the Maroon Machine?

glyn