Viability of infiltration assault. - Page 2

Skull6 · 09-10-2007, 17:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

It's now called the reconnaissance battle.

As an old scout officer, I can tell you that "the reconnaissance battle" is not necessarily the same as "infiltration assault." Recon is just that--being the eyes & ears of your commander. Should your commander feel you've "infiltrated" to a very good position, they certainly could order the assault at that point. But "assault" isn't necessarily the focal point of "reconnaissance."

Perhaps this is an error in translation on my part. "Reconnaissance battle" as it was defined to me is "the attempt to gain and maintain information supremecy over your enemy, to know more about your enemy & their efforts than they do about you & yours". Perhaps other militaries define it differently. If so, please share--& I'll chalk it up as yet another learning experience for me in this forum.

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-10-2007, 17:38 PM

In short, find the enemy. Blind the enemy.

Edit: Tried to find the BL Arm'd Recee Sqn In Battle but the DATC had decided to take that off the internet.

Ray · 09-10-2007, 21:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan187

What's your objective? Ray's was for a raid. SapperSarge's was to outflank in order to relieve pressure on his company. So the question is not whether it can be a central part of an army operating offensive, but what is the nature and objectives of such an offensive? If it is to make small cross border raids, then sure you could probably have quite a few independent operating companies try that out. It might work for some and not for others. But what if you're trying to take ground? What if you have a schedule that you're trying to meet? It all depends on what you're trying to do. Once you got that figured out, only then do you go about determining how you will do it.

Chinese were successful in 1962 against India.

lemontree · 09-11-2007, 00:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swampthing

Hey

This is a question for those people for military service. I am just a historian so my knowledge of these things are quite low.

Anyway, to what degree are infiltration assault-tactics viable today?

I ask this question with certain things in mind.

Given the mobility of most armed forces, there would be no more distinct front lines, on blurred combat "zones". In this instance, would infiltration assault be useful?

During the Korean and Indo-chinese wars, infiltration assault tactics were used to surround a position, cut off retreat, but also not initiate combat until very close to avoid artillery and air-strikes. This was done at night to avoid air-power and surveillance. However, nowdays IR and night-vision is VERY effective, and guided munitions (excalibur artillery shell, constant-patrol air-craft above, UAV's) would mean those advantages are negated.

What are your thoughts about this?

Infiltration pays a major part in mountain warfare, infact it is the essense of combat in mountains.

Swampthing · 09-13-2007, 09:49 AM

What exactly if vertical envelopment.

I have never heard of that term. How exactly does it function as a maneuver?

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-13-2007, 10:00 AM

Helo or air drop insert behind the enemy mainforce.

Feanor · 09-13-2007, 14:28 PM

Wouldn't it be impossible for a force larger then battalion size to do it?

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-13-2007, 14:30 PM

The Soviets were thinking brigade size and the Stryker Brigades were originally intended to be air inserted.

Stan187 · 09-13-2007, 15:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

The Soviets were thinking brigade size and the Stryker Brigades were originally intended to be air inserted.

Really? I remember reading this book from the 80s in the library about the Soviet military in the military science section. I'll get the name next time I go back there. But it basically said that the Soviets had all but forsaken anything larger than battalion-sized drops in the post WWII era. How would they even be able to drop a brigade in far behind enemy lines, if we are talking about NATO?

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-13-2007, 15:06 PM

You're confusing paras with air assault. Air assault requires the seizing of a suitable landing strip to deliver the brigade size force into the rear.

Stan187 · 09-14-2007, 16:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

You're confusing paras with air assault. Air assault requires the seizing of a suitable landing strip to deliver the brigade size force into the rear.

I thought that the term for that was air-landing. I thought that air assault was heli-borne?

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-14-2007, 17:10 PM

Air Assault is their term.

Ray · 09-14-2007, 23:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor

Wouldn't it be impossible for a force larger then battalion size to do it?

It all depends on the terrain, obstacle (man made and natural), weather, enemy dispositions, location of enemy reserves, gaps and such type of issues.

Ray · 09-14-2007, 23:33 PM

What is 'Reconnaissance Battle'?

Is it similar to 'Reconnaissance in Force'?

Could someone explain the same, please?

Reconnaissance in force (RIF) is a type of military operation used specifically to probe an enemy's disposition. By mounting an offensive with considerable (but not decisive) force, the commander hopes to elicit a strong reaction by the enemy that reveals its own strength, deployment, and other tactical data. In modern warfare, key weapon systems such as surface-to-air missile batteries, radar sites, artillery, and so forth can give their location away to everyone for miles around when actively fighting. The RIF commander retains the option to fall back with the data or expand the conflict into a full engagement.

Reconnaissance by fire (or speculative fire, 'spec fire') is a tactic which applies a similar principle. When not trying to be stealthy, reconnaissance units may fire on likely enemy positions to provoke a reaction. In the Iraq war, insurgents and terrorists use a similar tactic, in which they brandish weapons or purposely draw suspicion, in order to learn about the rules of engagement of Western forces.

Attack by Infiltration means that it is a proper attack aimed to capture an objective and not merely to obtain information.

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-14-2007, 23:51 PM

Sir,

You have that publication from the Canadian Army Electronic Library - It's called the Armoured Reconnaissance Squadron In Battle.

09-10-2007, 17:38 PM	#17 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,688 Country:	In short, find the enemy. Blind the enemy. Edit: Tried to find the BL Arm'd Recee Sqn In Battle but the DATC had decided to take that off the internet. __________________ Chimo Last edited by Officer of Engineers : 09-10-2007 at 17:52 PM.

09-14-2007, 23:33 PM	#29 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 25,850 Country:	What is 'Reconnaissance Battle'? Is it similar to 'Reconnaissance in Force'? Could someone explain the same, please? Reconnaissance in force (RIF) is a type of military operation used specifically to probe an enemy's disposition. By mounting an offensive with considerable (but not decisive) force, the commander hopes to elicit a strong reaction by the enemy that reveals its own strength, deployment, and other tactical data. In modern warfare, key weapon systems such as surface-to-air missile batteries, radar sites, artillery, and so forth can give their location away to everyone for miles around when actively fighting. The RIF commander retains the option to fall back with the data or expand the conflict into a full engagement. Reconnaissance by fire (or speculative fire, 'spec fire') is a tactic which applies a similar principle. When not trying to be stealthy, reconnaissance units may fire on likely enemy positions to provoke a reaction. In the Iraq war, insurgents and terrorists use a similar tactic, in which they brandish weapons or purposely draw suspicion, in order to learn about the rules of engagement of Western forces. Attack by Infiltration means that it is a proper attack aimed to capture an objective and not merely to obtain information. Last edited by Ray : 09-14-2007 at 23:39 PM.

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09-13-2007, 09:49 AM	#20 (permalink)
Swampthing New Member Join Date: 07-05-07 Posts: 19 Country:	What exactly if vertical envelopment. I have never heard of that term. How exactly does it function as a maneuver?

09-13-2007, 10:00 AM	#21 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,688 Country:	Helo or air drop insert behind the enemy mainforce.

09-13-2007, 14:28 PM	#22 (permalink)
Feanor Banished Join Date: 06-12-07 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,385 Country:	Wouldn't it be impossible for a force larger then battalion size to do it?

09-13-2007, 14:30 PM	#23 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,688 Country:	The Soviets were thinking brigade size and the Stryker Brigades were originally intended to be air inserted.

09-13-2007, 15:06 PM	#25 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,688 Country:	You're confusing paras with air assault. Air assault requires the seizing of a suitable landing strip to deliver the brigade size force into the rear.

09-14-2007, 17:10 PM	#27 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,688 Country:	Air Assault is their term.

09-14-2007, 23:51 PM	#30 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,688 Country:	Sir, You have that publication from the Canadian Army Electronic Library - It's called the Armoured Reconnaissance Squadron In Battle.

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