Patton vs Centurion 1965 Indo-Pakistan war - Page 7

zraver · 09-03-2007, 16:04 PM

Britannica is dead wrong, they have the M-47 as the first US made tank with a LRF, this is not true, the first American LRF was on the M60A2 Starship, plus no leopard 1 in German service got a LRF until the 1980's, the final German army version the 1A4 had a stereoscopic system.

Pakistan's most modern M-47 (in fac tthe most modern m47 ever built) the M47M was created after the 65 war and was upgunned to M60A1 standards with the same M68 cannon and co-incidence range finder, it never had a LRF.

As has already been discussed no M-48 before later A5 in the mid to late 70's had a LRF, a decade or more after the 65 war.

The First LRF in the world is the Chieftan followed by the m60A2

Science and Society Picture Library - Search

The Centurion got a LRF in 1978 in South Africa as the Oliphant Mk 1

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-03-2007, 16:17 PM

Night Vision & Electronic Sensors Directorate - Fort Belvoir, VA listed the 1st laser rangefinder as being fielded in 1969. It was an infantry system. So, technically, Britannica is not incorrect.

Shipwreck · 09-03-2007, 16:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraver

plus no leopard 1 in German service got a LRF until the 1980's, the final German army version the 1A4 had a stereoscopic system.

One minor correction if I may :

The Bundeswehr received its first Leopard 1A5 (w/LRF) in early 1987 and had 1,225 of these in service as of September 1992 (reduced to 737 in 1994).

The last Leopard 1A5 (Panzerbataillon 74 in Cuxhaven) were withdrawn from active service in 2003.

Ray · 09-03-2007, 16:48 PM

If Britannia is incorrect, then of course, one cannot debate or clear the cobwebs

It is generally accepted as the most well researched source.

Wikipedia is incorrect, Britannia is incorrect, then who is correct?

And who is to agree whatever link is being given is correct or incorrect; after all someone may have an axe to grind!

There has to be some baseline.

Shipwreck · 09-03-2007, 17:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

On which tank were they used in the 60s?

NONE (with the exception of some prototypes here and there).

First MBT deployed with LRF was the Chieftain in 1971, just like it says here.

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-03-2007, 17:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

If Britannia is incorrect, then of course, one cannot debate or clear the cobwebs

It is generally accepted as the most well researched source.

Wikipedia is incorrect, Britannia is incorrect, then who is correct?

And who is to agree whatever link is being given is correct or incorrect; after all someone may have an axe to grind!

There has to be some baseline.

Sir,

Britanica is not incorrect. They were referring to INFANTRY systems, not tank. USArmy Resarch, Development, and Engineering Command listed a ruby laser range finder as being fielded in 1969. However, again, this was an INFANTRY system, not a tank range finder.

Night Vision & Electronic Sensors Directorate - Fort Belvoir, VA

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-03-2007, 17:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

One minor correction if I may :

The Bundeswehr received its first Leopard 1A5 (w/LRF) in early 1987 and had 1,225 of these in service as of September 2002 (reduced to 737 in 1994).

Do you want to add in a minor correction here?

Shipwreck · 09-03-2007, 17:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Britanica is not incorrect.

The first field demonstration of a ruby laser rangefinder actually took place at Cornell Aeronautical Laboratory in 1964.

Shipwreck · 09-03-2007, 17:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Do you want to add in a minor correction here?

Correction added.

Thanks.

Ray · 09-03-2007, 17:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

NONE (with the exception of some prototypes here and there).

First MBT deployed with LRF was the Chieftain in 1971, just like it says here.

Compare with the wording here:

Quote:

In the 1960s, optical range finders began to be replaced by laser range finders. In combination with electronic ballistic computers, these greatly increased the hit probability of tank guns. They became standard in all new tanks built from the early 1970s and were retrofitted in many of the earlier tanks.

tank :: Fire control -- Encyclopaedia Britannica

Your link vs Britannia.

Prototypes have original fitting and not a replacement.The wording does not suggest prototypes.

Replacement means something being removed and something else being put/ fitted in its place. The optical RF was being replaced by LRF in the 1960s!

Colonel,

Read the paragraph and it is from the sub section, "Tanks". The whole paragraph is talking about tanks and replacement of optical range finders of tanks and not about Infantry weapons. The dateline is 1960s!

Anyway, jo ho so ho (Que Sera Sera)!

Shipwreck · 09-03-2007, 17:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Your link vs Britannia.

Thales Optronics vs Britannica actually...

Ray · 09-03-2007, 17:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

Thales Optronics vs Britannica actually...

Thales is some benchmark?

I am not aware.

I prefer not to take defence industry handouts as the gospel.

They have a product to sell with its obvious implications!

The Chinese claim that they discovered America and not Columbus. Some agree, some don't.

Quote:

"There are several reasons why. There are a number of European maps based on this one, and they would also be forgeries if this were a fake. There is a mass of corroborative evidence, and everything in the map appears in separate Chinese records. Finally, European explorers found Chinese junks and evidence of Chinese people in North America. This shows the Chinese were there first."
Map bolsters America-discovery claim

Shipwreck · 09-03-2007, 17:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Thales is some benchmark?

I am not aware.

Barr & Stroud and Pilkington Optronics (renamed Thales Optronics in 2001) most definitely are.

**Officer of Engineers** · 09-03-2007, 18:00 PM

Sir,

The Britannica quote is not very well written

Quote:

In the 1960s, optical range finders began to be replaced by laser range finders. In combination with electronic ballistic computers, these greatly increased the hit probability of tank guns. They became standard in all new tanks built from the early 1970s and were retrofitted in many of the earlier tanks.

I take that to mean that LRF and electronic ballistic computers were not standard issue before 1970.

Ray · 09-03-2007, 18:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

Barr & Stroud and Pilkington Optronics (renamed Thales Optronics in 2001) most definitely are.

Highly touted maybe.

I am sure their products must be good and hence acclaimed by the West.

So is Lockeed and its F 104s.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion!

Quote:

I take that to mean that LRF and electronic ballistic computers were not standard issue before 1970.

Colonel,

You maybe right, but then one has to be sure Pakistan was not given the same for guinea pig trials in combat since I take it it was known that Pakistan had aggressive designs on annexing Kashmir and were planning action!

09-03-2007, 16:17 PM	#92 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 15,915 Country:	Night Vision & Electronic Sensors Directorate - Fort Belvoir, VA listed the 1st laser rangefinder as being fielded in 1969. It was an infantry system. So, technically, Britannica is not incorrect. __________________ Chimo

09-03-2007, 16:48 PM	#94 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 26,136 Country:	If Britannia is incorrect, then of course, one cannot debate or clear the cobwebs It is generally accepted as the most well researched source. Wikipedia is incorrect, Britannia is incorrect, then who is correct? And who is to agree whatever link is being given is correct or incorrect; after all someone may have an axe to grind! There has to be some baseline. __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA Last edited by Ray : 09-03-2007 at 17:01 PM.

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09-03-2007, 16:04 PM	#91 (permalink)
zraver Contrary by nature. *Military Professional* Join Date: 10-22-06 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,529 Country:	Britannica is dead wrong, they have the M-47 as the first US made tank with a LRF, this is not true, the first American LRF was on the M60A2 Starship, plus no leopard 1 in German service got a LRF until the 1980's, the final German army version the 1A4 had a stereoscopic system. Pakistan's most modern M-47 (in fac tthe most modern m47 ever built) the M47M was created after the 65 war and was upgunned to M60A1 standards with the same M68 cannon and co-incidence range finder, it never had a LRF. As has already been discussed no M-48 before later A5 in the mid to late 70's had a LRF, a decade or more after the 65 war. The First LRF in the world is the Chieftan followed by the m60A2 Science and Society Picture Library - Search The Centurion got a LRF in 1978 in South Africa as the Oliphant Mk 1

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