aktarian

I'm only aware of one case. As far as equipment goes, I agree, cavalry was primary AT arm but it was ment to fight dismounted as a rule. Of course that was not always the case.....

Hmmmm, that's that. though to be honest 37mm gun was used briefly and replaced by larger calibres.

Now about tankettes not being tanks. Well, that is true if you define tanks as gun armed. But they were designed with similar thing in mind, giving protection, having cross country capability and ment to deliver firepower. Whether this firepower is gun or MG is matter of detail.

Well, I said something similar. Italy built up her forces then realised their weapons are obsolete and no money to do it again. As you said, others had industrial base to continue arming (upgrades, new models), some didn't.

And I would disagree with Britain, they produced some good tanks later in the war.

Garry

Hi Lunatock, Polish were defeated completelly when Soviets entered Eastern Poland..... they did not risk anything then.... It is wrong to say that Poland may have had chance to withstand if Soviets did not invade. After bloody campaign of 1919-20, Red Army was quite of high oppinion on Poles.... hence they waited until Poles collapsed completelly and then invaded. Look, Soviets start invasion on Septembe 17th, when Warsaw was encircled, main part of polish army was encircled near Vistula and some remains were defending on Romanian border.... Already then fragmented Polish army was doomed and Stalin was afraid that he would lose his peace pie... so he russhed into a defeated country....

That is why there any major battle against Soviet troops which captured around 300,000 prisoners. We all know that 22,000 of them (mostly officers) were executed in 1940 while remaining were either joined to Red Army or released....

Big K

i think timing does not matter, only thing is that The Soviets wasnt there to "protect" Poland...right?

even the Poles have been able to withstand against Germans it was sure that they will collapse with the Soviet attack.

and correct me if i am wrong but i think this was the 4th "sharing of Poland" between Germans and Russians...am i right?

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zraver

Tanks differ from tankettes in two major areas.

1- Tankettes do not have turrets.

2- All tanks were fully enclosed.

Tank cannon from 1916 to 1939 are very ecclectic. The first cannon mounte don a tank had better anti-tank capabilites than any gun mounted on any tank in 1939 found west of the Vistula (British naval 6pdr). The first turreted tank to mount a cannon rahter than MG's nmounted the short barreled low velociy 37mm. This same type of gun and tank was still in use as late as the invasion of Sicily. post war the main british giun was the three pounder, but they entered WW2 with the 2 pounder. America's fleet of Liberty Mk VII's was the biggest force of heavy tanks in the world in the 20's. By the 30's the US outlawed tanks over 11 tons.

The US T-20 medium tank mounted a 57mm gun before the weight laws, this was a ta time when no one else was thinkign of using tanks as the anti-tank weapon.

Stan187

As zraver metioned, the Poles real fault was forward defense. In a few days, 1/3 of their army was cut off from supplies and C2. Had they not done that, the Germans would have took even longer. They weren't fighting Blitzkrieg style yet, so it woulda been a slogging match. One Germany woulda won probably, but with much higher casualties.

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Garry

Yep, it was 4th Sharing. Poles would have better chosen their aly from either USSR or Germany.... being opposed to both was calling for a problem. It was clear from the very begining that Poland CAN NOT fight both... and that Great Brittain and France would not move a finger to help them!!! So why not to aly with one against another.... Hitler offered Poland to unite against USSR but they DECLINED with despise!

I was so surprised to learn that Politician who got them INTO THAT TROUBLE is now a national hero!!! What an irony.... he was damn stupid and but his nation admires him for that!!!

Still, Lunatock stated that Poles were fine before Soviets got in... while history states that Soviets were very cautious and entered only when they could not have any serious resistance => Germans did all the job for both....

Exactly the same guy who was rulling their forces become their national hero today.... what a joke

braindead

Garry , maybe some people , even politicians simply had moral standards ? And by 1939 , the most people viewed Britain still as the most important power , having Britain on your side was much more desirable than Germ. or Sov.Union .

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Big K

@Garry,

i think the problem was not "going in to trouble". they knew that the trouble can find and already found them many times before.

so they had to make a choice.

i think choosing the "right" side was the only thing left to make.

zraver

in 1939 Poland was sandwiched between two powers both with territorial designs on it. Who exactly were they supposed to gobbled up by, allying with one would have sparked an instant war with the other?

Stan187

It was either fight and get taken over, or just let them take over. While it might have spared them a little as far as losses went, they chose to fight instead. I think there is something to be said for that.

aktarian

Well, that's true......

Well, I guess I'll have to look into them in more details.

Garry

Probably, but not in this case. Pols were OK, with occupying somebody esle territory.... they were same predator... but weaker than its two largest niebours. Remember that Poland never hesitated to annex territory of Czechoslovakia under the Munich treaty in 1938. Ironically it was divided just like Czechoslovakia under another secret treaty in a year

It was indeed stupid to expect that Brits or France would move their finger to help Poland, after they betraded Czechoslovakia..... and Austria. When they did not DO ANYTHING to help Poland it was absolutelly in line with their previous logic.... If they have attacked even slightly in September.... Poland had a chance....

Absolutelly! Observing how two nations were betrated they could have expected same from Brits and French. But they let Brits buy them on empty promisses and take HUGE risks opposing simultaneously TWO most dangerous neighbours.... It is OK for the nation which was never betrated before.... but Pols were BETRATED so many times in the past by empty promises from Germany, Russia, France, Great Brittain and Austria.... they could have been much wiser.

The documents and archives seized by Red Army in Berlin disclose that Hitler offered Poland to give up their territory - corridor to Dantsig and was hinting on remuneration on east.... However, Polish government REFUSED to discuss any scenario which assumes give of territory to Germany... in exchange Hitler stated on Supreme Council - we need to have access to fight USSR.... Polish are making problem to us.... We need to RESOLVE Polish problem. He ordered commencing a plan how to conquer Poland and make sure that USSR does not help Poland. Hitler EXPECTED that Brittain and France would swallow agreesion against Poland just like they did with Czech and Austria.... He DID NOT EXPECT war on them. HIS MAIN TARGET REMAINED USSR
So Polish had way out... they could have joined Germany against USSR

Garry

No. I see other options - fight with Germany against USSR, fight with USSR against Germany, or most stupid - fight both simultaneously. Polish taken the third and were beaten hardly for that....

This was not only Polish dilema... Romaina, Bulgaria and Hungary had the same dilema.... Looking at what happened with Czech they joined Germany against USSR.

PerryE

I like designing things, and I came up with a vehicle design that I thought I'd post the basics of here to see if I was getting the basic design principles right.

Weight: ~17 tons, ready to airdrop with crew (3) inside, packed pretty tightly because they won't be moving around inside

Armor: Protected from 30mm APFSDS at 500m, but frontal armor no thicker. (I came up with a nifty layered composite armor design just for this.)

Armament:

autoloading 120mm smoothbore medium velocity assault gun/mortar/missile launcher firing:
programmable fuse HE semi penetrating
120mm mortar rounds
HEDP and hypervelocity laser-guided missiles

small UAV with sensors and a laser designator + launcher

an unmanned small turret with
smoothbore APFSDS firing 30mm chaingun
40mm AGL

Are there difficulties I'm not accounting for in making one gun in an assault gun configuration act in a direct fire, mortar, and missile launcher role? Avoidable problematic weaknesses?

The Chap

Although late, I must side with Zav. in these matters.

To begin at the begining ...

The woe of Poland is to be trapped between a wolf and a bear. It is a tribute to Polish tenacity and fortitude ( should that be fatalism ) that to their eastern and western borders the cus (phonetically) "Korva Masch" is immediately understood.

Russia would have collapsed were it not for the baltic convoys. Re-supply of "plucky little Poland" was not possible. Lest others forget, a Teutonic goodwill vist into port removed the docks and the city from the map.

The range of aircraft? Nope. Not even if they could make it through Sausage-Side airspace.

Polish cav. did a bloody work against the Germans, who were both superior in numbers and tech. The element of surprise didn't hurt either. As for the Poles siding with Jerry? Technically slavic. Ooopsie. And used to have an Empire.

I'll get back to the meat of tankettes soon -new thread at TSC - but the country is well siuted to cav. Christ! the Swiss still have bicycles! How dare the infantry move by foot!

The early panzers got a bloody nose once cav was in amoungst them. Sticky bombs etc.

Oh. and the Bosch had even more nags. So there.

Before I become too boorish don't forget the following three:

Battle of Britain - free Poles in the skies
Overlord - private beach with a close view of the fun
Radio Warsaw - faint coded fakes so the nazi sigint turn up the gain to triangulate ... then?

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Where's the bloody gin? An army marches on its liver, not its ruddy stomach.