Shipwreck

MRSI figures I quoted in post #20 were demonstrated with a vanilla M198 during test-firings at Aberdeen Proving Ground (in 1998 or 1999).

A cycle time of 10 seconds is not a problem with autoloaders (e.g. the defunct G6-52L ROF is 9 rounds in the first minute).

The problem is at the *extremes*. E.g. in the low range band (less than 15 km), the impact tolerance of 2 seconds isn't enough to achieve a significant MRSI capability (typically 2 rounds based on the assumptions of post #26).

Combined with a typical PEr of ~0.5% for unguided projectiles, the low number of rounds means limited effect (if any at all) is produced, even against soft targets. Limited effect produced means that soft target would become a hard target. So in the end MRSI fails to produce the specific benefit that was researched initially.

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"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God" (Matthew 5:9)

S-2

The range of time in which all projos must impact the target?

Battalion ToT per ARTEP in early-mid eighties, +/- 2 seconds.

Never shot MRSI as an ARTEP task in a 155 or 105 battery.

As to target effect, at lower ranges (i.e. shorter ToF) a 24 gun battalion is still putting 48 to 72 HE M107 on tgt +/- two seconds of ToT.

That's a lot of rounds and hardly a limited effect. We still mass fires and this is no different. If I'm engaging MRSI, I'd expect to do so as nothing less than a battery and, preferably, as a battalion fire order.

Commander's intent drives my engagement criteria as a Battalion FDO but damn near every Field Artillery appendix to a Fire Support Annex in an OPORD typically specified battalion-directed engagements unless a battery had been dedicated to a specified task-force (not done in my day AT ALL except in regimental armored cav squadrons w/ an organic HOW btry).

Beyond that, who cares? Nobody's shooting enough these days to justify any of this crap.

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Dago

Thats impressive. To think in a 5 minute span could rain down 90 shells compared with just 50 (PzH2000). Of course, not taking into account of a war type scenero and the available munitions and the capability of the loader. However, as time passes, it might not look like a huge difference of 6 more shells a minute though with every minute an increase of six shells one has to think of where all those shells will land and be a little frightened to be on the recieving end. In a 10 minute span, thats another 60 shells. 20 minute span, another 120. So on. 40 minutes, 240. That thing is a sling shot hopefully they got enough ammo to sustain that. Hah.

Albany Rifles

http://http://www.batteryb.com/doubl...ed_cannon.html

Makes as much sense as this.

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Gun Grape

Yea but you have to love a gun designed to shoot chain shot.

Albany Rifles

Not if you are an Infantryman!!!

Gun Grape

Here is what in means in real world terms. 10 rd sustained RoF for PZH2000,
with a M992A2 in support. (one gun/one ammo track) Total ammo between to two vehicles 156 standard length projectiles. At the 15min 30 sec mark of your Assault/destruction fires you run out of bullets

M992 has to hightail it back to whatever log train/ammo resupply point your service sets up. Know how long it takes to hand load and store 96 rounds and powders? Thats going to be how long your infantry doesn't have fire support

How much faster did you say this thing burns ammo?

Gun Grape

Pardon the expression that comes to mind nothing personal but:

"Sucks being you!"

Thats why you must all bow down to the God of War.

Albany Rifles

Don't you just hate it when the damn loggies force reality into the situtation?

Remember, Chiefs of Staff Propose. Logisticians Dispose.

Oh, and easy on the infantry comments or we'll let you gun bunnies play with Killer Junior to defend yourself!!!

S-2

Not in my 105 battery.

We're throwing APERS.

Stay low.

Dago

You pretty much summarized that up.

S-2

" At the 15min 30 sec mark of your Assault/destruction fires you run out of bullets..."

And your Battalion commander, X.O. S-3, S-4, Bn FDO, Svc. Btry. Commander, Bn Ammo Plt. Ldr/ PSG didn't plan to pre-position for a program of that duration?

That's not the only M992A2 showing up at the Battalion ASP. The whole damn battalion's on the road looking for bullets.

Gun Grape

Well hopefully, someone in the Fire support chain can talk the BDE out of a mission like that. Or the Bde-4 uses some common sense and shoots it down. Its a waste of ammo.
But how do you prep for a mission like that? Fill every 7 ton with ammo, and download as much as you can on the ground. But that leads to other problems.

You have shot up about 45 days of ammo in less than half an hour. I know, not as big a deal for you Army types. Until you have to sweet talk the Air Force into making your ammo a higher priority since you shot the dump almost dry and the normal log schedule no longer works and your sucking the LFORM dry.

But high RoF is sexy

And S-2 Killer Jr is way more fun to shoot that APERS-T. Only been able to do it for real twice. At least he isn't wanting us to shoot ICM in the wire.

Now the question of the day is, except for some terrain issues in the target area, Why would I want to shoot a 3-4 round Hi-Lo when I can shoot 1 DPICM/ICM for better effect and cover a larger area?

edit: Mentioning an officer billet (Bde S-4) and common sense in the same sentence. ROFLMAO. What was I thinking? Officers/common sense yea right. Present WAB company excluded of course

S-2

"Its a waste of ammo."

Destruction? Yup, if you're not shooting 8", it isn't easy. That's all changed with these high falutin' gizmo rounds. Course, they carry these things called "low order warheads".

Huh? I though that the idea was to blow the sh!t outta things. Sorta hard to do with a collateral-friendly projo.

"But high RoF is sexy"

Totally. See my earlier comment-

"Nobody's shooting enough these days to justify any of this crap."

They think that they'll buy a gun that can replace a battery AND the FDC.

"And S-2 Killer Jr is way more fun to shoot that APERS-T."

It ain't about fun when I can see their name-tags.

"Only been able to do it for real twice."

Uhhh...how real? M564 MTSQ set at muzzle-action fired at min charge real?

"Present WAB company excluded of course"

Of course, Gunnery Sergeant Grape.

Albany Rifles

edit: Mentioning an officer billet (Bde S-4) and common sense in the same sentence. ROFLMAO. What was I thinking? Officers/common sense yea right. Present WAB company excluded of course

Good move on that last line...it saved you.

105mm APERS-T story

I was at IOAC, we went out for artillery day. Sat in the bleachers and listened to an FA major call us grunts a bunch of dummies, King of Battle, blah, blah, blah. Same crap we got from the aviation, engineers and armor majors. Behind him is a M102 w/ crew. His speech is punctuated with them firing hi/lo, smoke rounds, etc. Remember, we are all captains and about a third of us had at least had a mortar platoon. We are not overly impressed and he gets annoyed.

He then calls out to the gun crew prpeare the APERS. They brought the round out on a frickin' pillow! The FA guys in our class are all snickering at this point cause they know what's about to happen. The FA Major points out the infantry sillouettes about 100 meters in front of said gun. Theyt do all of the fire commands and he has a big crap eating grin on his face as he looks at us and then smirks, knowing he going to show us lowly earth pigs the true God of Battle. BANG goes the gun and we all watch as the tracer zings between the targets, hit a mound and ricochets into the impact area. We all start laughing and he never knows why. Gun captain looked sheepish and the FA captians in our group looked embarassed.

We grunts may be stupid but we know how to set a fuze!


Back to the thread...

About halfway through the MDMP I would point out to the FSO and S3 that the FA battalion had a service battery, not a service group w/ an organic trans battalion and ammo group.

This idea is about rubble bouncing, not effects on target.

Shared hydraulic system, huh?

Wonder what the MTBMF is on it and what kind of PLL they have on hand? Hope the supporting unit has a LOT of cherry juice!