The Chap

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Where's the bloody gin? An army marches on its liver, not its ruddy stomach.

Anon

" That gadget is called a grenade."

Aka pocket artillery.

I loved grenades.

Ray

Colonel,

In narrow roads and where there is no high rise, one may have to clear buildings on either side and hold them to ensure that the enemy doesn't return to hit the other echelons coming in.

Therefore, while the actual clearance will be by section and platoon groups (supported by APCs or tanks if you wish, depending on the width of the road), since you will have to hold the building on either side, the strength of the force will be have to be decided.

To clarify, obviously, the battalion or Bde will not be going in in one shot.

Ray

Bergrom,

While it is ideal to have specialised units, the whole force becomes rather huge. Sometimes it is also not cost effective (though that should not matter to the US). MOUT is also not such a complicated operation as such, though more tricky and more difficult and one buys more casualties than other operations of war.

Our normal infantry and others also are trained in MOUT and they have not done badly.

Officer of Engineers

Sir,

That is the actual discussion. How to best approach MOUT. How much authority and how much responsibility do you shift downward before it becomes too dispurse to be of any use. The Canadians are saying that the deciding point is the company level. However, the way the US current company TOE ain't suited for that.

__________________
Chimo

Kozzy

So it is best to have most of your firepower and resources at company level?

Officer of Engineers

No, this is a very specific scenario for FIBUA (Fighting In Built Up Areas). Company seems to be the best echelon for this scenario - just big enough to get the picture but small enough to send the assets to the platoon that needs them.

However, before you can get to the city to fight, you have to fight your way to the city and for that, battalion is the better answer.

Ray

Colonel,

The command and control and delegation would be as in the ops of war - Advance to Contact.

While the progress would be monitored at the higher level and assistance beyond the capability of the unit/ sub unit given by the higher HQ, the actual action would be with the unit/ sub unit that is clearing the area.

Ray

At the macro level:

A city would have to be divided into sectors. The force levels and equipment for each sector would have to be decided based on the road dimensions, height of buildings, type of opposition (strength and their eqpt) expected, the possibility of interse switching of forces based on the road network and a host of other issues.

These sectors would have to be addressed simultaneously since the enemy should not be allowed to switch forces or allowed reinforcement or allowed to sneak in to area captured from other sectors.

Actually, it is quite difficult to explain in totality in the cyberspace of limited space since there is so much that involves a FIBUA or MOUT operation.

Anon

MOUT is by far the most complex of all military ops, ESPECIALLY when you're going out of your way not to break stuff.

I think therefore that the best arrangement is to keep the stuff at corps level until TFs are formed, and then have assets assigned directly to them based on their expected operations.

A reserve of certain types of forces should be kept at Bde level so that the O-5 can chop units where and as needed in a timely and responsive manner.

Mech AAA units, engineering assets, interpreters, MPs, Civil engineering, EOD, etc. are among the many units that are in very high demand in MOUT ops, these should be chopped right to each TF based on it's expected need, with the rest of the unused assets being transferred down to Bde level for dispersement as needed.

This is pretty much how we do it now. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Officer of Engineers

Thing is we're not keeping things at the corps level and the US is even slowing down at the division level. The Brits and eveyone else are at the Bde lvl and have even in fact, formalized the Battle Group (Task Force) level going down to the company (Combat Team) level.

More importantly, we're looking at this as the initial entry force at the company level. Things ain't broke but we're tyring to fit a square peg into a round hole,

Anon

"Things ain't broke but we're tyring to fit a square peg into a round hole,"

What else is new...

vetsforkerry

[quote=Jaeger]My 1st new thread!
...urban warfare... 1st, what vehicle offers the best mix of lethality, protection & mobility in an urban context?

Numbers matter. M113/Zelda is 27,000# plus advanced armor pack. Adaptable for anything. U.S. has 13,000 active inventory and another 4,000 mothballed.

We volunteered to set up a conversoin site at Baghdad airport to do T-72 APC's. This has to be the top dog. Rumsfeld doesn't understand conversions.....

We got 734 M113's out of "lost" status down in Kuwait. 734 ain;t enough to protect everybody but it's better than Humvee and trucks. Seeing the damn trucks in Mosul turned my stomach. Half American casualties in Iraq are from using the stupid Humvees and the trucks.

Vehicles with wheels suck at urban.....

We knew better 40 years ago. IDF rolls on tracks every day, every tough assignment .

BTW: "lethality" doesn't matter. Machine guns are the game. You need protection and weight is the main consideration. T-72's are huge.

The $1.6 and 2.6 million each Bradley and Stryker are bad jokes. A plasma cutter, plate, access to a foundry, and trained man-hours turn a MBT to an super APC in three days.

vetsforkerry

[quote=Officer of Engineers]No, this is a very specific scenario for FIBUA (Fighting In Built Up Areas).

Americans in Iraq are not FIBUA. They're mobile targets.

They don't speak the language.
They don't interact with the local political structures.
They don't know who the enemey is.
They don't get warning for roadside bombs.
They don't have aerial recon with drones (like IDF)
They don't have 100% APC rides (the damn Humvees and trucks, not IDF)
They don't really have a mission.......

Gee, weren't the elections fun ! Brue finger tips !! Wow.

1,400 dead, 15,000 wounded so's some Arabs could paint their fingers blue.....

And the winners ARE... the pro-Iranian theocracy creeps.

Officer of Engineers

[quote=vetsforkerry] What is your major malfunction? Get over it. The USArmy ain't the IDF. It's alot damned better. And I can't believe anyone actually want to turn some steel coffins (T-72s) into more bigger steel coffins.