Anon

The tree stump was probably either hollow or dry-rotted.

I can tell you for a fact that an AK-47 139gr FMJ round will not even come close to penetrating an average sized Oak tree. Neither will M855. Or .30-06.

Anon

The original M-16(the AR-15) was 1:18 rifling, reduced to 1:12 in the USA M16 and A1 model, and 1:7 or 1:9 in the M-4/M-16A2+. (depending on date of manufacture, the early M-16A2s all had 1:7" rifling)

1/4" mild steel i can believe- are you sure it was stainless though? The NATO std penetration test uses a 10mm mild steel plate. Stainless is typically much stronger/stiffer, and M193 is definitely not well known for penetration.(M855 is MUCH better in that regard)

Tronic

ok... thanks for the info.... I think i'm more confused now... that Discovery thing really fuked me up... anyways, thats why I stay away from rifles....

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gunnut

Sorry for the misinformation. The Mini-14 might be 1:11, most likely 1:12, to fire the old M193 ball ammo. The new Mini-14 has a 1:9 twist.

I'm pretty sure we shot stainless steel plates. My friend had extras from trying to work on his boat's engine. He bought them for bracketing or something like that. I remember him telling me those were stainless steel. But regardless, 1/4" is only 6mm, far less than 10mm. Plus we shot at a very close range, maybe around 20 meters. The M193 ball did not penetrate a 2nd steel plate. It didn't even dent it. It merely scratched it. The 303 British went through both plates with lots of warping at the edges.

The best way to compare the penetration power of the 5.56mm and the 7.62mm is to fire them from the Mini-14 and the Mini-30. They are essentially the same gun, just different chambering. Unfortunately I don't have a Mini-30 handy.

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Anon

Well, if you say you did it i guess you did it. You've enough cred with me that i'll take your word for it.

I'm actually impressed, i wouldn't have suspected M193 wouldn't punch through that much stainless plate.

leib10

It's been my experience that although the penetration of the 5.56 is better than the 7.62x39, the 5.56 tends to break up into small fragments after hitting a hard target like a steel plate. The 7.62 holds together more often.

We were once firing at an old pole of some kind that was probably around 8mm thick. Both rounds were easily capable of piercing one side, but the 5.56 had problems with penetrating the other side, instead usually leaving a large bulge. The AK had no problems with both sides.

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Garry

No doubts German heavy tanks had a lot of fun with mideium weight T-24/Sherman of the Russian tank armies.

What was my impression from reading Zhukov's memories that he believed that low mobility of heavy tanks slowed down whole german tank divisions where there was a mix - most medium + few heavy. Tacktically this was perfect mix - heavy tanks helped lighter withstand engagement with numerically superior Soviet tank armies. However, heavy tanks had problems with mobility - they were not able to march 100-150km to attack flanks of Soviet tank army which could move sidewards when it encountered heavy resistance.

This helped Soviet tank armies armored with mostly medium weight tanks to encircle German tank divisions. Those heavy tanks had too small area of operation due to much higher fuel consumption and autonomity.

Compared to that Soviet armies could make up to 100km in a day in enemy's rears!

I would never argue that Tiger can kill any medium tank long before the medium had chance to do anything.... and they did kill quite a lot.

SRB

Well I watch on Discovery, they fire AK-47 and M-16(Vietnam era) and in close range AK-47 kick M-16 ass in penetration.
Advantage M-16 round is it breaks in human body.
In jungle AK-47 will be better chose.
On open M-16.

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SRB

About this T-34 I will see only this:

Higher tolerance rulez!!!

Tronic

yes, I saw the same thing on Discovery....

SRB

They fire Ak-47 and M-16 in wooden beam. M-16 stop in wood and AK-47 split beam in two.
This was in close range(less than 40foot or 120m maybe much closer 10 foot) on longer range M-16 have advantage(over 100feet or 300m).
Ak-47 is heavier so it is fatigue for soldier but in hand to hand battle it could be good club which we cant say for M-16.

Anon

It is important to remember that the M16A2+ fire a steel cored projectile (M855) specifically designed to improve upon the lackluster penetration of the old M193 cartridge.

Anon

The M16 is perfectly fine as a bayonet platform. I dont see how the AK holds any advantadge at all over it in that regard.

nicolle'

he mean that it doens't need bayonet to knock you down. for good...!
i did my conscript training with ak-47, and i can say that the numbers on the internet are not quite exactly. for example at 300 m i've been very accurate firing with it, and at 100 m it can penetrate around 11 cm on concrete an 23-25 cm on wood.

nicolle'

i'm not a big man ( 1,74m and 70 kg ) but every infantry man can tell you that after 3 months of training , when you have to march 60 km the weight of the weapon, nomater if it is m-16 or ak-47, doesn't count. but the water suply, a piece of chocolate and a pair of dry socks.