bigross86

Matter of fact, the military commander for Hebron recently left his post and was moved somewhere else because of the hostility of the settlers there.

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Sameer

You guys do not make sense now, if he IDF does protect Palestinians from the settlers, why not make sure that ALL illegal settlements are moved out?



Let us be honest with each other here, the Palestinian cause is a just cause, either you give them a decent place and TRUE sovereignty and share Kerusalem (well you did say that it does not belong to any relition) and btw just because retarded Arab dictators tried to invade before does not mean that the Palestinians have to pay for crimes of other nations.

OR
share Israel with Muslims, would that not be something nice to see human beings evolve and live side by side in stead of fighting because someone believes tha God promised a certain plot for them and them alone?


The reason why the world has not reacted so negatively towards Israel is a combination of smart Israeli lobbying and Muslim suicide bombings, what those Muslim fanatics Jehadi wet dreamers do not seem to realize is that they are hurting themselves more and thus the whole issue of land gets pushed back and the issue of terrorism gets pushed to the forefront, that way the Mullahs are happy because they can keep on preaching hatred towards the Jews and the Jewish fundamentalists can keep on expanding settlements.


END RESULT: Jewish women and children keep on getting bombed in malls and Palestinians constantly have to live in overcrowded ghettos called Gazza and WB, with no future of a decent life and a good job and sometimes a laser guided bomb will fall on them because there happens to be a terrorist in a crowded city etc.. very sad.

Shek

Sameer,

1. The Israeli government is dismantling Gaza settlements by force.

2. Living side by side is not a Jewish problem. In fact, I would number the Jewish extremists in an extremely small minority. However, your number of Muslims who cannot exist side by side with the Israelis is much, much higher.

3. The PA failed to improve the conditions of the "ghettos" and instead, Arafat lined his pockets. Now, Israel is not innocent here, as they often withhold taxes collected from the Palestinians. But, there is a large potential that those funds would have gone to Swiss Bank accounts in good ol' Yassir's name instead of to his beloved followers.

4. Israel greatly improved the Palestinian economy following the seizure of the disputed territories in 1967. GDP increased, employment increased, electricity increased, education increased. What Israel failed to do was develop a legitimate ruling class that could address greivances and target the poorest areas, resulting in conditions that allowed the growth of Hizbollah, Hamas, IJ, etc., and created self-inflicted harm by the Palestinians through the first and second intifadas.

4. My bottomline is that both Palestinians and Israelis share guilt in this process. However, while the Palestinian cause is legitimate, their victim mentality will be their demise as it perpetuates violence and Israeli retaliation. While Israel has not fully stuck to the road map to peace, they are much closer to the path than the Palestinians. Time will tell whether Abbas has the ability to consolidate power enough to move the process forward or if the different terrorist groups will pull the process to its grave.

indianguy4u

If palestinian kids idiolise suicide bombers, whose fault it is? Chosing education is not the worst option.

__________________
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Sameer

Noone is in denial that the Palestinian authority or many Palestinians are at fault, the issue still remains that there needs to be a fair settlement, what is happening to the illegal settlements in the West Bank? Also if we look at the last proposed peace deal by Barak, Israel controlled vast areas of WB still and would control all land, sea and air routes and movements acros the created Palestinian states which made such a peace deal bad, I dont blame Arafat for refusing, noone will deny that the guy is a loser and created terrorism.

I do not know where you get the figure of Palestinian GDP increases and nice lifesytle, unemployment RUNS AT ABOVE 50%, there are millions of refugees who do not have the right to return to Israel, that is inhumane, this is why losers like Hammas will always be able to hijack the situation wether you think that the Palestinians or the Israelis are at fault is not the issue, the lack of a soverign future for Palestinians or a shared future within Israel sounds more important.

Sameer

I agree with you 1000000% but I also realize that there are fundamentalists out there on the Israeli side who will talk about such things as "Palestinians dont belong here" this is the land promised to us by God.

To me that is also wrong.

Shek

Here's the information you requested. If you want the stats on the impact of the intifadas on the Palestinian economy, let me know. That data demonstrates the self-inflicted pain strategy that the Palestinians are pursuing.


http://www.palestinefacts.org/what_occupation.html

What Occupation?
Commentary; New York; Jul/Aug 2002; Efraim Karsh;

EFRAIM KARSH is head of Mediterranean studies at Kings College, University of London. His articles in COMMENTARY include "Israel's War" (April 2002) and "The Palestinians and the `Right of Return"' (May 2001).

Abstract:
Few subjects have been falsified so thoroughly as the recent history of the West Bank and Gaza. The history of Israel's so-called "occupation" of Palestinian lands and the ways in which Palestinians and Arabs have distorted Israeli actions in the West Bank and Gaza are discussed.

Excerpt:
Thus it happened that, at the end of the conflict, Israel unexpectedly found itself in control of some one million Palestinians, with no definite idea about their future status and lacking any concrete policy for their administration. In the wake of the war, the only objective adopted by then-Minister of Defense Moshe Dayan was to preserve normalcy in the territories through a mixture of economic inducements and a minimum of Israeli intervention. The idea was that the local populace would be given the freedom to administer itself as it wished, and would be able to maintain regular contact with the Arab world via the Jordan River bridges. In sharp contrast with, for example, the U.S. occupation of postwar Japan, which saw a general censorship of all Japanese media and a comprehensive revision of school curricula, Israel made no attempt to reshape Palestinian culture. It limited its oversight of the Arabic press in the territories to military and security matters, and allowed the continued use in local schools of Jordanian textbooks filled with vile anti-Semitic and anti-Israel propaganda.

Israel's restraint in this sphere-which turned out to be desperately misguided-is only part of the story. The larger part, still untold in all its detail, is of the astounding social and economic progress made by the Palestinian Arabs under Israeli "oppression." At the inception of the occupation, conditions in the territories were quite dire. Life expectancy was low; malnutrition, infectious diseases, and child mortality were rife; and the level of education was very poor. Prior to the 1967 war, fewer than 60 percent of all male adults had been employed, with unemployment among refugees running as high as 83 percent. Within a brief period after the war, Israeli occupation had led to dramatic improvements in general well-being, placing the population of the territories ahead of most of their Arab neighbors.

In the economic sphere, most of this progress was the result of access to the far larger and more advanced Israeli economy: the number of Palestinians working in Israel rose from zero in 1967 to 66,000 in 1975 and 109,000 by 1986, accounting for 35 percent of the employed population of the West Bank and 45 percent in Gaza. Close to 2,000 industrial plants, employing almost half of the work force, were established in the territories under Israeli rule.

During the 1970's, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth fastest-growing economy in the world-ahead of such "wonders" as Singapore, Hong Kong, and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself. Although GNP per capita grew somewhat more slowly, the rate was still high by international standards, with per-capita GNP expanding tenfold between 1968 and 1991 from $165 to $1,715 (compared with Jordan's $1,050, Egypt's $600, Turkey's $1,630, and Tunisia's $1,440). By 1999, Palestinian per-capita income was nearly double Syria's, more than four times Yemen's, and 10 percent higher than Jordan's (one of the betteroff Arab states). Only the oil-rich Gulf states and Lebanon were more affluent.

Under Israeli rule, the Palestinians also made vast progress in social welfare. Perhaps most significantly, mortality rates in the West Bank and Gaza fell by more than two-thirds between 1970 and 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 years in 1967 to 72 in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 years for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa). Israeli medical programs reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Iraq the rate is 64, in Egypt 40, in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). And under a systematic program of inoculation, childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were eradicated.

No less remarkable were advances in the Palestinians' standard of living. By 1986, 92.8 percent of the population in the West Bank and Gaza had electricity around the clock, as compared to 20.5 percent in 1967; 85 percent had running water in dwellings, as compared to 16 percent in 1967; 83.5 percent had electric or gas ranges for cooking, as compared to 4 percent in 1967; and so on for refrigerators, televisions, and cars.

Finally, and perhaps most strikingly, during the two decades preceding the intifada of the late 1980's, the number of schoolchildren in the territories grew by 102 percent, and the number of classes by 99 percent, though the population itself had grown by only 28 percent. Even more dramatic was the progress in higher education. At the time of the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, not a single university existed in these territories. By the early 1990's, there were seven such institutions, boasting some 16,500 students. Illiteracy rates dropped to 14 percent of adults over age 15, compared with 69 percent in Morocco, 61 percent in Egypt, 45 percent in Tunisia, and 44 percent in Syria.

Shek

I tracked down the effect of checkpoint closures due to force protection requirements during the second intifada.

http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/mna/mena.nsf/Attachments/WBGsummary-ENG/$File/WBGsummary-ENG.pdf

Palestinian Economic Crisis
Continued Sharp Deterioration

The second year of the intifada witnessed a further steep decline in all Palestinian
economic indicators. Gross National Income (GNI)1 in 2002 mounted to 40 percent less than in 2000. With a 9 percent growth in the population of the West Bank and Gaza over the past two years, real per capita incomes are now only half of their September 2000 level. Unemployment stands at 53 percent of the workforce2.

Physical damage resulting from the conflict jumped from US$305 million at the end of
2001 to US$728 million by the end of August 2002. Between June 2000 and June 2002, Palestinian exports declined by 45 percent in value, and imports contracted by a third.

Overall GNI losses reached US$5.4 billion after 27 months of the intifada. Given that GNI amounted to US$5.4 billion in 1999, the opportunity cost of the crisis is now equivalent to one full year of Palestinian wealth creation.

The Palestinian Authority (PA)’s fiscal position remains precarious. As a result of rising unemployment, reduced demand, and the withholding by the Government of Israel (GOI) of taxes collected on the PA’s behalf, monthly revenues fell from some US$91 million in late 2000 to just US$19 million by mid-2002. A collapse of the PA has been averted by emergency budget support from donor countries, which averaged US$40 million per month through 2002 -- a half of total PA budget outlays over the period3. In this context, the recent decision by GOI to resume the monthly transfer of the PA revenues is a highly positive step.

The domestic private sector has absorbed much of the shock to the economy. Well over 50 percent of the pre-intifada private workforce has been laid off. Private agricultural and commercial assets have suffered over a half of all physical damage. Bank credit to the private sector is drying up, while the PA currently owes private suppliers about US$370 million in unpaid bills. In addition, direct donor assistance to private firms has been negligible, despite a consensus that the private sector must drive any economic recovery. Real private GDP (measured at factor costs) declined by some 30 percent between 1999 and mid-2002.

The proximate cause of Palestinian economic crisis is closure -- GOI’s imposition of restrictions on the movement of Palestinian goods and people across borders and within the West Bank and Gaza. GOI has regretted the impact of these measures, which they view as necessary to protect their citizens against violent attacks. The restrictions take two major forms: internal restrictions reinforced by curfews, and external closure of the border between Israel and the Palestinian territories, including limitations on the entry of Palestinian workers.

Here's a picture of Palestinian GDP from the same article, starting from after the first intifada. Notice how the second intifada started just as Palestinian GDP was taking off and then how it plummeted due to Israeli measures to counter Palestinian terrorism. Way to go Arafat!

doctor_vals

And honestly - Jordan is a 75% of so called palestinians people with the same flag and the same language - so it is already palestinian state. Why it should be another one with 2 small lands?

doctor_vals

I think you didn't study history at all, and didn't read bible. But you have to read something to understend - that land more than 2000 years ago belong to jews.
And at that time NOBODY know about muslim people or islam or arabic people.
But some day Rome came overthere to rule that countries (it was 2 countries at that time - Israel and Judah). And Rome loose a lot of people and money and time to destroy that counties - so they push all jew from that land and call that land - Palestine(no arab people were presented at that time. And later in a few centuries arabs took that land and they destroyed evrything which belong to jew and build own mosque at the holy land of the Temple. And I never saw on TV in Israeli school kids study how they should kill and hate arabic people who live in Israel. But I saw a lot how arabic kids study and train from 2-3 years old - to kill all jews. Do you expect peaceful arabic people? Don't be a blind. It will NEVER happen. Just watch what kind of land arabic people whated to be call as Palestine - whole Israeli state.
Interesting point. You blame israeli people - they create conditions to hate themselfs. As you, I assume doesn't know - UN gave rights to both - arabic and israelis people to pronounce own independent states. Jews did it - and they have what they wanted. But arabs - went to war... and they loose that war. They have chance to prononce own state - but NEVER did it. Why.... - they do not want own state AT ALL. They just want to overthrow Israel as state. And honestly - Jordan is a 75% of so called palestinians people with the same flag and the same language - so it is already palestinian state. Why it should be another one with 2 small lands?

doctor_vals

BTW - 85- 90% of arabic people who live under Arafat dictatorship - worked in Israel. So, for security reason Israel goverment cease temporary working permit to that people, because they may work for terrorist organizations.
Well, who started that intifada? Who doesnt want to work inside in Gaza or West Bank - and go to work to Israel. Where that money which USA and Europe gave to arabic people???? They spent to buy a weapon, not for build a new buildings or create something. They got money from Saddam for each terrorist act. Where that money - again to buy a new explosive.
BTW, Arafat had a lot of money in Swiss and Franch banks. Why if he was a leader - he took money from own people. He was a thief ..........

Maevi

Hi, and yes, I believe that there should be a State called Palestine, and this State should be alongside Israel, I do not believe in a one State solution, because I do not believe that the Israelis and Palestinians can live together in one State, because since the Intifada, there is no trust, and I mean, no trust between both Israelis and Palestinians. Although I do know that there are both Palestinians and Israelis who do get along and the majority of both peoples want peace with each other. I have recently returned from a trip to Israel and I was able to visit the West Bank also, so got to see Palestinian life aswell as Israeli life.

What is standing in the way of peace? the hardliners, and these hardliners are both Israeli and Palestinian. But, since the removal of the settlers from Gaza, has things calmed down? I don't believe they have, so why don't the Palestinians concentrate on rebuilding Gaza and work towards peace among themselves also, stop the fight for supremecy within Gaza, something in which the PA should be dealing with. Also, I don't think Hamas should be allowed to stand for elections, because I don't believe that Hamas are for the Palestinian people, and I believe that Hamas would continue the Intifada where Arafat left off.

doctor_vals

I agree, they cannot live together, because of palestinian terror. So they should live - jew in Israel, arabs in W.Bank or Gaza. After withdraw jews from Gaza - I'm wating for withdraw arabs from Israel. But ... it will never happen, because if jew push arabs to do the same USNavy will support them as they did in Yugoslavia when support albanise.

Palestinians will NEVER stop theirr terror against jew. A few years ago it was almost signed statement - they will have 96% of all Gaza and W.Bank + Jerusalem as capital and additional land to cover their lost of 4% in desert area. They DO NOT want it. They asked as additional to return all people back to Israel. And of course all deal - gone... and they start intifada. And as you saw before they loose after a couple of years. And now they rebut own mistake and blame USA and Israel, that they do not have Infrastructure.

Harris Neutral

Israelites r the worst nation in the world, the people who killed their prophets. The people who live in somebody's land. Killing innocents. Once i saw an Israeli soldier with a gun getting afraid of little Palestinian boy with a stone and by God he killed that boy. I think there is no right for Israelis to live. I as an American hate Israel.

Bluesman

MODS!!!

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"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell