highsea

This was reported in the Jerusalem Post last month. Over 50% of the Arrow-2 missile is made by Boeing.

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My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

Jay

Atleast some one is thinking in Israel, nevertheless its very amusing!

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A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

bigross86

You know, I just read through four pages of anti-Israel vitriol, and I'd like to point out a couple things:

As for the immense patriotism/arrogance in the IDF, I'd just like to state that NOBODY has made the same gains that the IDF has.

To the claim of Syria being willing to go to the tables for 30 years, explain why they denied invitations as recently as last year.

Israel's willingness to negotiate in 1973 came after Israel lost over 6,000 troops, but it was after numerous cease-fire violations by the Egyptians, and even though Israel could have struck first like in 1967, due to US pressure, they didn't.

USS Independence - Beats the hell out of me, I have no freakin' idea why they did it.

And in general, if the US were to abandon Israel, the situation would go to hell in a handbasket in a New York Minute. The so called "Road Map", which Israel has so far almost UNILATERALLY held to (meaning the Palestinians have done jack...) is ONLY due to US pressure. Whatever peaceful gains which have been made would be lost almost instantaneously. If the US is truly in support of peace in the Middle East, they will keep supporting Israel, which is the only democracy in the Middle East.

And as for selling stuff to the PRC, the Phalcon deal was cancelled after one plane, and I believe the Harpy stuff is only upgrades of whatever reason they gave. It's just Israel's testing the US. Not too smart, but everybody does it, which I believe legitimizes it, according to Troung, no?

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You're a naughty girl, go to my room!

Officer of Engineers

The same? No. Surpassed it? Alot of countries has, especially WWI and WWII.

So, when are you going in? I like to send your Sgt advance warning ... and a bottle of scotch. He's going to need it.

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Chimo

bigross86

C'mon, can you seriously tell me that another army exists that was as outgunned, outnumbered, outpositioned, outmaneuvered, and outeverything else like the newly born IDF was in 1948, and STILL had greater achievements? If you do, I REALLY wanna hear about them.

I'm goin' in at the end of July

Officer of Engineers

I'll agree with outgunned and outnumbered but when were they outeverything all at once? And find me one incidence where they were outmanouvered at the strategic level?

But to answer your question - Hannibal and Alexander.

Infantry?

highsea

When the technology comes from the US and development is funded by the US taxpayer, we don't consider it legitimate to sell to a potential enemy.

Phalcon
Harpy
Lavi
Fighter radars (ELM-2021)
Python-3 AAM
Thermal sights for tanks
Satellites and communication technology
Israel is biting the hand, imo.

troung

Might shock you but generally the Israelis have out gunned the Arabs.

A few cases in point...

F-15A vs. MiG-23MS
F-16A vs. MiG-21SMT
F-4E vs. MiG-21MF
Mirage IIICJ vs. MiG-21PF
Centurion/M-48A5 vs. T-55
M-51 vs. T-34-85
M-4A1 vs. FT-17 (yes Lebanon had them in 1948)

Hopefully that doesn't shock you too much...

Officer of Engineers

Think he was speaking in terms of Orbats.

ZFBoxcar

Israel’s ambassador to US: Arms export agreement a great achievement
Israeli participation in the Joint Strike Fighter project will be renewed.
Ran Dagoni, Washington 26 Jun 05 16:44
The lengthy dispute between the US and Israel concerning Israeli arms exports to sensitive countries is about to end, after Israel signed a memorandum containing significant restrictions.

Israel Ambassador to the US Daniel Ayalon said that Minister of Defense Shaul Mofaz would sign the memorandum on his visit to the US in July, after which Israel’s participation in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) project would be renewed. Israel was excluded from the project in protest against its willingness to upgrade Harpy attack unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) for the Chinese Air Force.

”Israel’s willingness to sign the memorandum is not surrender; it’s a great achievement,” Ayalon said. “Such a memorandum would have prevented regrettable affairs, such as the Phalcon and the Harpy.” Ayalon added that Israel had an interest in increasing supervision of technology exports. “This settlement will tighten the partnership with the US, and in any case, our interests coincide.”

According to Ayalon, the memorandum will expand penetration of US markets, where the potential is greater than in any other country, by Israeli defense industries. It will also upgrade technological cooperation with the US. “Close allies of the US, such as the UK and other NATO countries, have signed similar agreements,” Ayalon noted.

Lengthy negotiations over the content of the memorandum were held in recent months. An Israel Ministry of Defense delegation headed by Maj. Gen. (Res.) Herzle Bodinger will visit Washington tomorrow to determine the final wording. Bodinger will deal with any residue from the Harpy affair, while Zvi Shtauber and Zvia Gross will concentrate on the wording to be signed by Mofaz.

As in the Phalcon affair, the US will not indemnify Israel for compensation to China for violating the contract. Israel Aircraft Industries will refuse to pay, and the burden will fall on Israeli taxpayers.

The initial reaction by Israeli defense industries was deep disappointment. They fear that the US will restrict their freedom to do business. Sources said that the UAV deal would be the last defense deal with China in the near future, and the effect on Israeli relations and civilian trade with China could not be predicted.

On the other hand, Ministry of Foreign Affairs sources said that relations with the US were “immeasurably” more valuable than with any other country. The Prime Minister’s Office and Ministry of Defense share this view.

Published by Globes [online] - www.globes.co.il - on June 26, 2005

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...927456&fid=942
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I'm glad this whole thing seems to be at an end. Israel will not do more arms deals with China and will be back in the JSF.

Anon

"C'mon, can you seriously tell me that another army exists that was as outgunned, outnumbered, outpositioned, outmaneuvered, and outeverything else like the newly born IDF was in 1948, and STILL had greater achievements? If you do, I REALLY wanna hear about them."

I'll put Patton's relief of Bastogne up against ANY military manuever ever executed in warfare, by anyone.

And you can add Midway to the list too. Israel has NEVER accomplished a naval victory anywhere near as impressive or momentus. You can toss the whole pacific amphibious campaigns in too, because ONLY the US has ever even attempted, let alone succesfully accomplished, such a campaign on such a scale over such vast distances.

Then toss in the efforts of the US 8th AF over Europe in WWII. The Israelis have never once conducted 1,000 plus plane raids. The US conducted them everyday for over a year...in two separate theaters at once.

I'll also put the 300 spartans in there as a clear example of a force that FAR, FAR, FAR exceeded anything that Israel(or probably anyone ever) has ever accomplished.

The IDF is 5 parts technological dominace, 1 part guts, and 4 parts hype.

ZFBoxcar

Israel didn't have tech dominance in 48, and only in a couple areas in 67 and 73 (and the Arabs had tech dominance in other areas). I agree with your main point about Israel's military achievements not being as impressive as some others, but I disagree with your last point.

Anon

True in 48, most definitely not true in 67 and 73.

The Israeli airforce was superior to the competition in both of those conflicts(logistics, training, weapons, and airframes).

In 1973 the Israelis had better tanks than the Egyptians or Syrians, with better trained crews, but the Israeli Army charged right into a well laid Egyptian trap(because they were so smugly overconfident and so fully underestimated the Egyptians), and got themselves mauled. Then the same exact thing happened to the Israeli Airforce when it went charging straight to the fight to support the ground forces and got caught in a well coordinated forward egyptian SAM screen, and chewed to pieces.

The above to me proves that the IDF is anything but unbeatable, nor above SERIOUS tactical and strategic errors, even against 'inferior' opponents.

The reality is that the Egyptians laid a terrible whippin' on the IDF in the 1973 war, and only Syrian indecision and incompetence saved Israel from fighting a desperate last battle for survival in her cities.

Israel came this close to losing...

troung

Dammit I promised myself I would take it easier on you seeing as all the crap you deal with on PDF...

But actually the IDF most of the time had the tech edge even in 1967 and of course in 1973.

Let's be honest even the IDF had RPG-7s in 1973 (actually before then) along with M-72s and both sides had ATGMs, what made them deadly in Arab hands wasn't their rather low P/K but using them in massed attacks by outfitting units well past the advised ToE. ATGMs were not even new as the French employed them in Algeria and North Vietnam also used the AT-3 before 1973. The IDF did employ the SS-10/SS-11 and Cobra which worked pretty much as "well" as the AT-3s. The difference was that one side used them in mass to deal with armor but the other side didn't see the same potential in the weapon and didn't use them in the same way. But by the end of the war the IDF did receive the TOW which as we know is far more advanced then the AT-3.

SAMs were not new either as the IDF/AF has the very deadly HAWK system since before 1967. The HAWK is far more deadly then anything the Soviets gave the Arabs. Also the IDF/AF had the Shrike missile giving them a SEAD capability the Arabs totally lacked. What made the Arabs SAMs so "deadly" was their employment, plus one side writing off losses as being from SAMs rather then airplanes...

The Mirage IIICJ, Mirage 5J, F-4E and A-4 were far advanced in payload, range and weapons then what the Arabs were getting from the USSR.

Also improved Arab tank gunnery and having fighters with guns (MiG-21MFs) did help the Arabs as well. Before the arrival of the MiG-21MF the backbone was the MiG-21PF which might have well been unarmed as the R-13 had an awful PK and even if fired within its very small NEZ would mostly miss. Little wonder that Iraq actually bought AIM-9Bs from Jordan as late as the 1980s to put onto planes.

Israel found some short comings with their artillery, not because the Arabs were so big but the fact the IDF had neglected it relying on the IDF/AF to provide support. And as it stood the vast majority of Arab guns (minus the Libyan Palmaria-155s) were towed because they could not get SP guns from the USSR which wasn't big on them. As it also stood the IDF did have super long range M-107s.

A lot is made of the M-51 Shermans being so old. Surprisingly with their French 105mm guns they could kill a T-62 (when you get down to it more then likely a non ERA T-72). So those were pretty high tech and had an excellent French upgrade package.

And in 1948 let's remember the Arabs were not some military power but pretty much were as bad if not actually worse equipped then the IDF. Lebanon still had FT-17s for example... so the Arabs were not some military super power... Syria had H-39s...

Now the Arabs did have issues past equipment but they are not the idiots they are often made out to be.

When you think about it the Arabs are pretty smart and learn fast. They found weak links in the IDF and moved to exploit them. Israel fell into the same traps in Lebanon with special anti tank units as they did in 1973 and did not learn the lessons. They headlong rushed into Lebanon with the same tactics at first that they got bloodied with in 1973 but in worse terrain that far more favored the defender.

Even today they simply put more armor onto APCs rather then having the men get the hell out and take out the anti tank commandos as opposed to trying to hunker down more. Really that has to do with the fear of loosing people which probably makes them lose even more people.

I mean I can see where you come from and all and am not trying to insult you or Israel. I'm not trying to take anything away just trying to cut through some of the media reporting which painting things.

But M-21's 5 parts tech, 1 part balls, and 4 parts hype holds up in some ways well...

Officer of Engineers

The Alamo.