troung

"lol thanks, but I have only slightly more than a feeling to counter your feeling. Hamas has stated that they will accept a 2 state solution as a spring board for launching a new intifadah into Israel. Arafat has said much the same thing. Abbas is not Arafat, and Hamas could somehow end up getting incorporated into the PA. Until that happens though I think its a reasonable fear, although not a guarenteed thing."

Well every player in this drama has more or less accepted that Israelis have a right to breathe air in the middle east, the drama is over the location of the air . But first off I do think it would be a hard sell once a viable Palestinian state is made to get people to ruin things by attacking Israel and risking a lot. That is a good sound bite nowadays for the base to push them back into the sea and such. And using Palestine as a springboard would not be looking at history very well if they tried it (the history of raid and retalion by both sides over there). That was what my feeling was based off of, speculation and guessing.

"I was unaware of this. How did they settle it/what was the outcome?"

Syria needed to divert sopme water for local use. Israel and Syria shoot it out to about a draw then sit down and agree over the water use. Really some tanks shot at each other (in one fight Centurions actually came off bad with dug in Panzer IVs), there were artillery duels, cross border raids by elite units on both sides, planes dropped bombs on each others ground and a couple got shot down.

In other word nothing out of the ordinary....

"They were never a very large number, and I don't mean to be cavilier about people losing their homes, but its over and done with. If every injustice is to be undone a million more would be created."

Israel and Syria were working out a deal to return most of the Golan back to Syria with Assad Sr. before he died. After he died Israel broke down the talks with his son. So really it can't be that important to them when you think about it.

"The Syrian army perhaps, but Syria might decide at some point to authorize Hezbollah to use the Syrian border."

Syria didn't even allow PLO raiders to stage out of Syria back when it was fashionable in the 1970s. They had them go out of Lebanon and not use Syrian ground. After they get back the Golan more or less that ends their need for Hezbollah. Makes one wonder what would happen. Hezbollah is a huge part of Lebanon speaking in a way for the Shiite majority.

Off topic when Israel went into Lebanon in 1982 they not onyl went in basically on a trick from Iraq (to get them to fight Syria) but they went in on an outdated report (really outdated) which showed a Christian majority, when they got deep into the war it was figured out there was a Shiite majority and putting in a Christian government would not work. Of course the Christian frontrunner had also lied about the majority (Lebanon never re did its census for like 50 years before hand or something crazy like that) . Read that recently in the book "Israel's Lebanon War" which was written by 2 Israelis back in 1985, good read and rather unbiased (though it hits Sharon hard).

"lol moving the border would just mean that those troops, tanks, and artillery stare at eachother from different places. But seriously in purely dollar and sense terms, no it would not be benificial for Israel to leave. The Golan Heights is where almost all of Israel's vineyards are as well as lot of other agricultural produce. Lots of Kibbutzim there lol. I'm not saying that that is reason enough not to negotiate over the Golan, I'm just responding to that specific point."

They were more then willing to give up most of it back in the 1990s. And end that problem and the need to keep units ready to fight at a moments notice drops. It is like once Jordan became friendly Haruv got disbanned and Egoz came close to being disbanned after the 2000 Lebanon pullout.

"Hahah I guess it would be a boring forum if people tried to keep the peace by agreeing with eachother."

Well at least I do a better job being the odd man out then the last one (Lull) .

"Let'em make peace, or let'em make war. All we are doing right now is perpetuating the problem, and making new ones for ourselves in the process."

Isn't that funny that we are arming both sides to keep the peace.....

Confed999

That still doesn't make me trust them.
Sounds like they were weakening from your examples. Never said they would evaporate. Still wouldn't stop their enemies from getting stronger.
That proves what? That Israel actually does go to the table you speak of? Or that there is no hostility towards Israel from these places? If they had the upper hand I still say there would be no treaty. I still see no reason to believe an attack wouldn't be possible, not including terrorism.
Never said it was. Doesn't change the fact that a treaty is a piece of paper that only has meaning if all parties believe it has meaning.
Same reason Egypt was there. If they thought they could have over run Israel, they would have tried.
I never mentioned the USSR, as they no longer exist. I'm talking about today.
Saying "don't attack me or I'll nuke you", isn't blackmail either.
Never said it was. I voted for isolationism over any support, remember.

__________________
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

Confed999

You're nothing like Lul. You act like a person.

highsea

Yeah. Jimmy Carter's bright idea. Got them all Nobel Peace Prizes, too. What a deal...

__________________
My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

troung

Spellings off, enjoying beer...

"Never said it was. Doesn't change the fact that a treaty is a piece of paper that only has meaning if all parties believe it has meaning."

Egypt and Jordan do very much follow through on it.

"That proves what? That Israel actually does go to the table you speak of? Or that there is no hostility towards Israel from these places? If they had the upper hand I still say there would be no treaty. I still see no reason to believe an attack wouldn't be possible, not including terrorism."

No it shows they have dealth with issues with those nations. Egypt was the leader of the anti Israel team at the time.

"Saying "don't attack me or I'll nuke you", isn't blackmail either."

Or how about I threaten you and fly planes over your airspace but don't do anything back because someone pays for my equipment and if that is not enough I have nukes. And don't buy defensive weapons becuase I'll have the guy paying for my equipment call it a threat to stability.

"Same reason Egypt was there. If they thought they could have over run Israel, they would have tried."

The whole point was to beat them into signing a treaty. If that had not worked in about 1980 there probably would have been another war.

"Never said it was. I voted for isolationism over any support, remember."

Well isolationsim there would be nice. Cut off money to Egypt, Jordan and Israel and let them kill each other or work things out. We weren't all that hated before we stuck our nose in. But it is rather to late for us to get the hell out. Easy to get in and impossible to get out. I think on Israel along we have spent 100 billion and then we have the rest of the region, 2 peacekeeping ops into Lebanon and thats leaving out the Gulf.

Of course there are other places I do not think it is good to stay out of altogether (Burma, Afghanistan, Sudan to name a few)...

"You're nothing like Lul. You act like a person."

Thanks . You guys are good as well even though we rarely agree.

I had been kind of worried once he got kicked off that the red dot would be on my chest....

Confed999

My spelling is allways off, don't feel bad.
And Israel doesn't? Do Egypt and Jordan still support terrorist groups against Israel?
And Israel must be included in that statement.
All that shows is that both sides do the same things.
Unless you're saying Egypt could have taken Israel with little problem, you haven't changed my mind.
Then we can't risk weakening one side over another, because we're stuck there.
Well, really, who do any of us agree with entirely? I married a liberal, and I'm nearly an anarchist.
Nah. You don't cuss every other word. You don't call people names. You don't make posts with the sole intention of attacking someone. You're much better than all that. Glad to have you aboard.

troung

"My spelling is allways off, don't feel bad."

Worst case I agrue for you againist myself...

"And Israel doesn't? Do Egypt and Jordan still support terrorist groups against Israel?"

I will answer your question with a question because I love long winded explaintions from myself.

Have you ever heard of Black September? Don't bother to google if you don't because as I said I love long winded explainations.

Ahh hell I'll just tell you...

Jordan used to be the staging ground for PLO raids into Israel. Israel conducted counter raids and Jordan did quite well in fighting back. King Hussien still got made at the PLO for acting like they ran the show. His army was even madder. He was trying to balance his army, Israel, the Arab states and the large amount of Palestinians inside the country.

He goes to inspect his army (one of the best trained Arab forces) and finds womens bras hanging of the aerials of the tanks. Bad sign. His men were bd about having to act like women.

He then ordered his army into combat not for the sake of Israel or because they scared him but more for the armies sake. A bunch a battles latter and a broken cease fire or two later the PLO seems done for. Syria then sends in armored units into Jordan and all hell breaks lose as the Jordanian AF bombs the crap out of them and they pull back after some armor battles. This was September 1970 (think it was 1970).

PLO goes to Lebanon and a new terror group Black September is formed. Jordan became a temporary priyah in the region although they did send a few battalions to Syria during 1973. Stuff like that is one of the reasons that I don't think a new Palestinian state would want to play proxy war. Proxy wars in the middle east are not very fun to play for anyone.

So short answer no they don't support terrorism on Israel directly as a national thing (single people and small AQish groups can't count).

"And Israel must be included in that statement."

Yes Israel, Jordan and Egypt settled issues. Israel had to give up land to settle with Egypt.

"Well, really, who do any of us agree with entirely? I married a liberal, and I'm nearly an anarchist."

I don't even agree with myself... no joke its kind of wierd really...

"Unless you're saying Egypt could have taken Israel with little problem, you haven't changed my mind."

Who knows. One thing is very sure, after 1973 the USSR was supplying offensive weapons to the Arabs. Before hand they had defensive air forces (point defense planes) for the most part after then the Tu-22Bs showed up in Libya and Iraq and if Egypt had stayed around as part/leader of the "greater Israel killing coaliton" they also would have gotten some. Libya was buying up scores of Mirage 5s and MiG-23s (more then they could actually fly for a reason). So at the very least things would have been much worse for the IDF.

And the Arab Israeli wars are a story of the arabs getting better over time. It took them 7 years to go from total defeat to crossing the canal with a well trained airforce and army. Egypt also lost Sadat for peace and did have to fight Libya afterwards and got hit with sanctions from the USSR. So them going for peace was and is rather serious.

"Nah. You don't cuss every other word. You don't call people names. You don't make posts with the sole intention of attacking someone. You're much better than all that. Glad to have you aboard"

His cursing hid my liberal (guess I am liberal here) agruments. See I could go under the radar. Were he here he would steal the thunder and kill the discussion. But I knew him from PDF and he knew facts just could never get past using colorful words, over the span of 3 years I never got that .

And I'm glad to be here .

Confed999

If they aren't rounding them up as criminals, then they most certainly do count.
All with a situation similar to the current time. I say keep it up. I'd rather see slow progress instead of taking the chance of causing more problems. You see I still don't trust the region, and I see no reason to start.
If there's a question, it wouldn't have been easy.

ZFBoxcar

But one between Israel and Palestine would only affect Israel and Palestine, and there are many who have authority in the Palestinian Territories that see it as an all-or-nothing game. Either they get British Mandate Palestine or the struggle continues indefinitly though it may take different forms as time passes. They are not saying this out loud as much, because during negotiations it would not be prudent, but I still do not think that a Palestinian state would end the conflict. As for the Golan Heights, here is the BBC's assesment of the situation:

As well, look at what happend on Friday:

Now, this is not a common occurance. But the Golan Heights is Israel's most easily fortified and defended position. If Palestinian infiltrators get to start at the pre-67 Israeli border, they can poison a third of Israel's water supply. It does not take an army to do this.

Julie

LOL....you make it through the 6-week newbie training camp here, you gotta good chance. I always look forward to your posts, no matter how controversial.

Anon

I want to end all support.

I could care less what happens to them. They made their bed, now let them lie in it without Uncle Sam to tuck them in at night.

Ray

Troung,

Request you put the others' post in quotes (from the toolbar).

Or else it becomes difficult to read.

Thanks.

troung

They do and so does Syria and Egypt. Syria and Egypt were in the war on terror before it came to the west (1980s). Cells are there and they do hunt them. Syria has handed over AQish and Iraqi Baathist guys to the USA. Egypt hunts the brotherhood and AQ and Jordan turns over guys. I only put in the wiggle room because for example Zarcawi (?) comes from Jordan but they don't support what he is doing. AQ are parasites as we know that try and set up shop everywhere and one can find them in any nation.


From the BBC thing.


The water issue is not over the fear of poison (hell the water is more or less to nasty to drink at anypart), but over diverting it. Thats war the little battles were fought over and then both sides agreed not to divert.

And Syria did not allow PLO units to cross their borders on raids back from at least 1970. I tend to think that was a one off guy that crossed the border because that is not the Syrian way to do things. Plus Syria and the PLO have had issues (look who in Lebanon they showed up to fight).


That would have been a bad war and thankfully for the region it didn't happen.


Well I have been here for awhile but stopped coming by.


Thanks and I would not be here if I did not enjoy taking it from people who disargee with me.


Tend to agree there. We have dropped people from our aid list for less then selling our tech to our enemy. But the lobby groups are to big and congressmen are easily bought off on both sides of the isle. Both sides fight for handouts then hand out billions of dollars that don't belong to them.

huh_what

If you have the time, read this official Israeli report on the attack on the USS Liberty. It's very interesting.

http://usslibertyinquiry.com/evidenc...y%20Report.pdf

Franco Lolan

The Israelis back stab us all the time. We can be friends without giving them military aid. The Israelis don't need the money and we do. Cut the funds.