ZFBoxcar

Yes, there is that. The IDF is an arrogant institution, and all Israelis go through it, so they come out of it with a patriotic spirit that looks (and is) a lot like arrogance.

I used to (wrongly) think you had a vendetta against Israel but I've gradually realized this is not the case.

Well these things take time to turn into influence. I wouldn't trust China to side with Israel at any point in the future, but it is not out of the question, or at the very least, its likely the Israeli government thinks its possible. But it still bothers me to leave Taiwan hanging especially since it is in a similar situation to Israel.

troung

"I used to (wrongly) think you had a vendetta against Israel but I've gradually realized this is not the case."

Thanks.

I do a lot of military related research on Israel. I tend not to agree with some of the more common info out there which makes me seem anti Israel. Have not met more then 3 native Israelis that I can remember in the real world and don't see them as different then the average person

I do have a habit of sounding really harsh

But I can more then trash the EU, Austalia, America, Russia, Singapore, South Africa and rather easliy China (yawn 2ez4me) on dealings with nasty people... i'm on of those guys that follows shady arms dealings...

"Well these things take time to turn into influence. I wouldn't trust China to side with Israel at any point in the future, but it is not out of the question, or at the very least, its likely the Israeli government think its possible."

Well there is a massive problem. Israel would have to lose the USA to come close to getting influence over China's export policy.

"But it still bothers me to leave Taiwan hanging especially since it is in a similar situation to Israel."

Yeah.

Actually it seems the Lavi was supposed to be done with Taiwan's help but the Arabs jumped in and threatened sanctions on Taiwan if they joined back in the 1980s. Really had Taiwan joined Israel could be flying Lavis even after the USA got smart and realised we were getting played for suckers and pulled out funding. At one point Israel was trying to build up a "team" of surronded peoples (South Africa, Singapore for example).

But they are all a little too shady to even admit they have heard of each other....

Off topic I read some article about the Lavi and the background fight behind it, I will post it if I can find it.

Confed999

Never said it would.
Same thing I'm saying about their enemies. As soon as they get the edge they'll be the ones not talking. The reason the want to talk is because they do not have that edge. I truly do not know why you trust them so much.
I don't believe in economic sanctions, they only hurt the innocent. I say pick one, world participant or isolationist. I would pick isolation over dealing with bad guys, but allmost nobody would agree with me.
Is it the same in the dealings with their enemies?
That would include about, 2/3 of North America, 1/2 of Europe and Australia. At least from where I'm sitting, but I should have been more specific.
Ever cornered a wounded animal? It's going to do whatever it can to survive. That's what nukes are for.

I think the difference between you and I is that you actually believe Israel's neighbors are talking for peace, and not biding their time. If Israel lost all support their military would shrink, as you said, but since their neighbors would still be recieving support their military would grow. I do not believe they would be any more willing to talk once the edge is theirs again. Just as they wouldn't talk when they previously had the edge. Stop supporting the entire region, or the chance you're taking is too big for me to support. Unless you can prove to me the intentions of Egypt, for example, are entirely honest and honorable, you'll never convince me to tip the scales. The consequences of being wrong affect too many innocents.

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troung

"Same thing I'm saying about their enemies. As soon as they get the edge they'll be the ones not talking. The reason the want to talk is because they do not have that edge. I truly do not know why you trust them so much."

Syria won't have an "edge". Look at the equipment (ATGMs, SAMs, BMs) Syria buys it's not even to build an edge but to hit certain "niches". The rest they handle by thinking outide the box and catching onto certain IDF weaknesses.

It's not about making Syria a "big shot" (historically they never were) but about cutting back on support to bring Israel to the table. Israel will not go to the table unless they have to really unless we really make them. I mean really if this keeps up with us having to pay them just because they will not talk we are going to have to try something. If we can get them to the table without cutting aid then great, if not we might have to cut it.

And once there is peace we could cut back on aid anyways .

"Is it the same in the dealings with their enemies?"

Check out American arms dealings and policy, right now it is a joke to act impartial. We hit Indonesia with crushing military sanctions (though no economoc sanctions for obvious reasons) for getting caught killing 125 people in a place we wanted them to invade. Israel in Lebanon killed a lot more and we did nothing. They in fact got very scared during 1982 even before the imfamous massarce that once the average American saw what they were doing people would not want to be their friend anymore (bombing civilians in Beirut). Of all the sides in 1982 they probably got the most worried about our peacekeepers, and not worried that the peacekeepers would get hurt either more like what they migth see or hear.

And the Arabs we arm are not at war with Israel anymore. Jordan and Egypt both signed peace treaties a long time ago.

"Stop supporting the entire region, or the chance you're taking is too big for me to support. Unless you can prove to me the intentions of Egypt, for example, are entirely honest and honorable, you'll never convince me to tip the scales. The consequences of being wrong affect too many innocents"

Egypt and Israel already made peace. Really the next in line is Syria and Palestine and then its done.

In fact Syria and Israel trade and do business with each other. Syria is not run by a islmo fundo wack job government (Christians can and do reach high positions in the government and military there) and of all the Arab governments (minus Jordan and a few others) is probably one of the most stable (more stable then many GCC states). The government is not as unpopular as most Arab governments like the house of Saud. They are doing well economically these days as weathly Saudis and others leave SA due to the instability and are setting up shop and opening businesses. It's not the basket case one hears about on the news. Syria is also opposed to the AQ movements (they have turned over AQ guys over to the US with little fanfare) and had their own war with Sunni groups, hell they have turned over Iraqi Baathists.

"I don't believe in economic sanctions, they only hurt the innocent. I say pick one, world participant or isolationist. I would pick isolation over dealing with bad guys, but allmost nobody would agree with me."

Cutting back economic aid is different then economic sanctions really. It's not blocking trade but no longer funding them.

"Ever cornered a wounded animal? It's going to do whatever it can to survive. That's what nukes are for."

But that sounds like the nuclear blackmail we are so opposed to these days.

ZFBoxcar

Israel is at the table though. The problem is that Israel needs assurance that a Palestinian state is not just "Stage 1" of the destruction of Israel, since that is Hamas' openly stated plan, and Arafat's plan when he spoke in Arabic. Abbas might really want a two-state solution and I think Israel needs to do more to help him (or to give him a chance), but I don't think that this means Israel is not at the table. They could be doing more, but thats not the same thing.

Franco Lolan

The Israelis should not receive US funds, R&D, or military assistance as long as they display this posture. Our not giving them military aid will in no way mean they will fall apart.

Confed999

Sounded to me like you wanted to end support in your posts. Military equipment becomes useless rapidly without maintainence. The ones still reciving support could continue to grow stronger, and I'm not sure how you can't see that.
Doesn't mean I think it's right. Most of the dealings with their enemies come from other than the US, as I spoke of before.
Paper. Can you prove they intend to honor these pieces of paper? I don't trust them based on how their people are treated, let alone how they've treated Israel in the past. How many treaties did Nazi Germany have with countries it invaded?
Sounds like Israel was at "the table" huh? Would Egypt/Jordan have made peace if they thought they could win?
The bit I quoted, and replied to, expressly stated "sanctions".
Using nukes as a last resort is blackmail? Sorry, no way. That would make the USA and Russia the biggest blackmailers of them all, but I do not believe they would be used short of despiration.

Again, you beleive the neighborhood is honest and trustworthy, I do not. Prove they are, or forget about my support. Things are moving forward slowly, and I am not willing to risk a war of that scale.

Confed999

Agreed, the same could be said of all the other table's seats.

troung

"Israel is at the table though. The problem is that Israel needs assurance that a Palestinian state is not just "Stage 1" of the destruction of Israel, since that is Hamas' openly stated plan, and Arafat's plan when he spoke in Arabic."

No Arab nation openly calls for the death of Israel. People get tired of fighting the same people for 60 year and that goes for both sides no doubt

It's more that Israel needs to call in the religous settlers off Palestinian and Syrian land and make a solid commitment to pull out. The rest would more then likely work like clock work.

Israel made treaties with Egypt which was the leader of the Arab forces which openly called for the death of Israel and they have sat down made peace and such. The same with Jordan. So the fear of some massive Arab attack is in a way more a delaying trick.

"The Israelis should not receive US funds, R&D, or military assistance as long as they display this posture. Our not giving them military aid will in no way mean they will fall apart."

I can agree.

Confed999

What makes it Palestinian and Syrian land?
Like I said, sounds like you want to end support.

ZFBoxcar

Its not a massive Arab attack that is the concern, its the very reasonable fear that if Israel has no right to project force into the West Bank and Gaza, then the next intifadah will be in Israel, and the IDF won't be able to pursue the attackers in Palestine. As well, why should Syria get the Golan Heights back? Half the population are Druze who serve in the IDF and wouldn't have it any other way, and the other half are Israeli settlers. It is also Israel's only means of defending its water supply, and the command of the heights reduces the risk of surprise attacks and artillery from being rained down on Northern Israel.

troung

"Sounded to me like you wanted to end support in your posts. Military equipment becomes useless rapidly without maintainence. The ones still reciving support could continue to grow stronger, and I'm not sure how you can't see that."

Peace treaties are already in place. We arms them with inferior equipment to keep an edge for Israel and the ones we arm are no longer in a state of war. Unless Israel up and does something silly...

And as for the stuff falling apart if we stop paying for the parts and suppling money...

Iran still has 58 combat ready F-14As of the 79 supplied in 1976. Vietnam used F-5A/F-5Es, CH-47As, UH-1Hs, C-130s and U-17s in 1978 to invade Cambodia. Laos used T-28s to bomb the Hmong in the 1970s. Burma still has UH-1Hs in service. Pakistan has 28 of the 40 F-16A/Bs.

So no the sky would not fall but it would be a powerful message to them that we run the show, we don't like getting stabbed in the back and we want "Peace in the Middle East".

"Can you prove they intend to honor these pieces of paper? I don't trust them based on how their people are treated, let alone how they've treated Israel in the past. How many treaties did Nazi Germany have with countries it invaded?"

The treaties have been in place for more then 20 years. And the only shooting was an Egyptian border guard or two getting shot by the IDF and no follow up tension. Jordan was ready to talk back in 1971 but because it was not good timing deployed a small force to 1973 then made peace. And Egypt is not Nazi Germany...

"Sounds like Israel was at "the table" huh? Would Egypt/Jordan have made peace if they thought they could win?"

Actually force of arms brough Israel to the peace table with Egypt.

Israel was not going to negatiate before the war. The 1973 war was launched with that point in mind to cross the canal, kill a bunch of Israeli soldiers, scare the nation of Israel, and show the world the Israelis bleed the same color as everyone else, show everyone Egypt can fight and call it a day. The point of the war was not as much to retake the Sinai (for them it would have been great but not necassiry) as to show up and kill as many IDF soldiers as possible. Israel did not leave 1973 head up high like in 1967.

It actually worked and Israel sat down with them.

"Using nukes as a last resort is blackmail? Sorry, no way. That would make the USA and Russia the biggest blackmailers of them all, but I do not believe they would be used short of despiration."

The USA and USSR had them pointed at each other, this is more like India (Israel) pointing nukes at Bangledesh (Syria).

"Again, you beleive the neighborhood is honest and trustworthy, I do not. Prove they are, or forget about my support. Things are moving forward slowly, and I am not willing to risk a war of that scale."

They are moving slowly because someone is dragging their feet and someone is letting them.

"The bit I quoted, and replied to, expressly stated "sanctions"."

I wouldn't even think we would have to sanction them to correct what I said just cut back aid. Aid money is not a right.

troung

"Its not a massive Arab attack that is the concern, its the very reasonable fear that if Israel has no right to project force into the West Bank and Gaza, then the next intifadah will be in Israel, and the IDF won't be able to pursue the attackers in Palestine."

I actually doubt it. Yet I can't back that one up with more then a feeling.

So feel free to tear me up as much as you want/need to over it

"As well, why should Syria get the Golan Heights back? Half the population are Druze who serve in the IDF and wouldn't have it any other way, and the other half are Israeli settlers. It is also Israel's only means of defending its water supply, and the command of the heights reduces the risk of surprise attacks and artillery from being rained down on Northern Israel."

The water issue got settled in 1965. There were Syrians on the Golan who got kicked out and then Israel annexed the area. And Syria is past raining down artillery and launching suprise attacks times have changed. And due to modern tech the Golan has little importance fo catching suprise attacks. Really all it does is waste money to keep troops, tanks and artillery staring at each other for 30 years wouldn't you say?

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I love how due to need (it would suck if we actually agreed ) I become the pro Arab/whatever here

ZFBoxcar

lol thanks, but I have only slightly more than a feeling to counter your feeling. Hamas has stated that they will accept a 2 state solution as a spring board for launching a new intifadah into Israel. Arafat has said much the same thing. Abbas is not Arafat, and Hamas could somehow end up getting incorporated into the PA. Until that happens though I think its a reasonable fear, although not a guarenteed thing.

I was unaware of this. How did they settle it/what was the outcome?

They were never a very large number, and I don't mean to be cavilier about people losing their homes, but its over and done with. If every injustice is to be undone a million more would be created.

The Syrian army perhaps, but Syria might decide at some point to authorize Hezbollah to use the Syrian border.

lol moving the border would just mean that those troops, tanks, and artillery stare at eachother from different places. But seriously in purely dollar and cents terms, no it would not be benificial for Israel to leave. The Golan Heights is where almost all of Israel's vineyards are as well as lot of other agricultural produce. Lots of Kibbutzim there lol. I'm not saying that that is reason enough not to negotiate over the Golan, I'm just responding to that specific point.

Hahah I guess it would be a boring forum if people tried to keep the peace by agreeing with eachother.

highsea

The US never gave massive aid to Israel until after the 1979 peace deal with Egypt. Prior to that it was a couple hundred million a year. The US is being played for a chump by both sides. We brokered the deal with Egypt, and Israel gave back the Sinai, in return we give billions of dollars every year to both sides. 25 years later, we are no closer to a solution of the larger problem, and the Palestinian plan from Camp David was never implemented anyway. All we are doing is dumping money into a bottomless pit, and there is no end in sight.

In the meantime, Israel sells the weapons that we developed for their defense, to countries that we would never sell these same weapons to. Yes, I'm for cutting off the aid. I say put it back to 1978 levels. Israel is perfectly capable of defending herself from her Arab neighbors.

Let'em make peace, or let'em make war. All we are doing right now is perpetuating the problem, and making new ones for ourselves in the process.

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