Shek

To read the full analysis, visit Behind the Headlines on the Winograd Commission’s Interim Report.

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"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

Druze

There is some blame on military brass as well. The army is by no means guilt free of this epiosde nor should they be. The brass needs to handle an idiot like Peretz with kid gloves and send him on his way with what they tell him if they see he is that incompetent. Also soldiers need to be a bit less pampered in their reserve obligations if you are to have a fantastic citizen army as Israel has a reputation for having.

In the last 6 months reservists are staying for as much as 45 days at a time and enudring much more rigorous training then ever before. More soldiers are now enquiring about different combat units before their draft time comes. Interest in the army in Israel has regrown since the war and the soldiers are doing their part.
I wanted the report to focus much more on the relationship between the army and the IAF then it did but I'll live with the results.

Officer of Engineers

Lieutenant,

No offence but 45 days ain't squat to get a guy ready for deployment. In the CF, a reservist gets a minimum of 60, more like 90 days before they're sent out. For the IRF battalions, they get a lead up training of 90 days before they're declared operationally ready.

There are no ways to cut corners, especially about training.

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Chimo

Druze

None taken Engineer. Remember that Israel is a much smaller country then Canada and has a much smaller theatre of operation then Canada as well. Israel doesn't deploy the distances that Canada does either but much closer to home.

Israel is also a citizen army, you can't ask an entire population of men ages 21-40 to give up 90 days out of the year every year. Its just not feasible economically or politically. If you have less time you have no choice but to make due with less.

Also Israel can call up reservists for extended periods of time during a national call up if it so chooses, I'm talking about basic reserve obligations.

Officer of Engineers

I have a stupid question. What's the regular army for? If you can't goto war without calling up the res, what's the point having a standing regforce?

Stan187

Colonel,

The Yom Kippur is pretty good example. The regular army, together with the Air Force (and today the Navy, too) hold the line in case of overwhelming attack, wait for reserves to have the manpower to attack in force.

However, with Israel's advancement past its enemies in military technology and proficiency, this does not necesarilly have to apply. Meaning that if the attack is not overwhelming, then the regular army can begin transferring the battle to the enemy's territory (which is an IDF strategic imperative) prior to all of the reserves being ready.

Basically, the design is done to protect Israel from the worst possibility, which is an overwhelming attack on Israeli territory by multiple foes. How likely such an event is nowadays is a different story.

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The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

Druze

Look I hear your question but every nation calls up reserves in a major war. Every nation has a military standard that is modeled for its own needs. In Israel a reservist can be deployed from his office cubicle to the front in the same day so a reserve army is much more effective then often is the case. As Stan said in the Yom Kippur War soldiers didn't even wait for their call up, they simply drove up to the front and hopped in tanks and raced toward into the fighting very effectively. Down south in the Sinai the glory of the war was taken by Ariel Sharon's division which was a reserve division. The reserves have proven very effective for Israel. Holding three fronts as Israel has done in its major wars is one thing, but mustering counter offensives on those three fronts deep into enemy territory while securing ground taken in such large quantity as Israel has done takes a bigger military then Israel's active divisions can do.

Israel's last war with Lebanon was Israel's first war without a nationwide reserve call up. Only a fraction of the reserves were called up. Ground wasn't seized and secured so the objective of stopping rockets was not achieved.

Israel fought in Lebanon like the US fought in Vietnam when you look at how towns were taken and then units moved onto the next town without securing the one they were in. My unit had to fight in every town we took on the way back across the border. It was ludicrous.

You are a military man Engineer, so you know there is nothing more annoying then not having some crappy mop up units to laugh at on your way home and ask them how well they like cleaning up the mess you got to cause for them. War is nasty buisness and somebody needs to come in and clean it up after

Officer of Engineers

Lieutenant,

What you've just described is an operational nightmare. I cannot say anymore without a further study in how the res are called up and deployed but in an offence where you don't even know who's doing what and where they are coming from, I'll just say it's not a scenario I would have tolerated.

I'm sure there are contingency plans left, right, and centre for all the res but to expect a guy jump from the office to the front lines without even being briefed on OPSEC and SIGSEC rules would simply be a recipe for a disaster.

I need to learn alot more before I can understand and appreciate how the res works within the IsDF. From what little that has been pointed out to me ... I get the shivers if such were to face a Guards or a Shock Army.

Blademaster

The IDF were able to get away with this because they are not facing against a trained foe in the sense of a real army. They are just facing against dedicated ragtags. I am sorry but Hezbelloh is no army. They are just insurgents who can only operate in small cells but not in formation of a large group acting in synergy. That takes real training which would be damn impossible to hide from Israelis prying eyes.

If against Egypt or let's say for argument's sake (Just bear with me even though it is not real in life) against Turkish army, the reserves hastily running into battle on the first day would be made mincemeat. That is, unless, they are being told to man fortifications where they just shoot at anything that's not Israelis and moving.

Officer of Engineers

Which is why I still don't understand how the regforce works. For such a short and small war, the regforce should have been able to handle it all by itself. We're talking what? 5 brigades?

Blademaster

Maybe they are using the regforce as in reserves just in case one of the bigger armies decide to act in concert with Hezbelloh such as Syrian Army or in the unlikely scenario of Egyptians moving against Israel. They use the actual reserves to fight the insurgents while preserving the regforce for a bigger threat.

Druze

It is and was an operational nightmare at that time. It is not something that was planned. The reserves in 1973 were supposed to report directly to bases to be briefed. Coded messages went out on the radio to all reservists, there is a lot of old video footage of Israelis standing around huddling next to a radio waiting for their unit orders. Many went straight to the front. It was Yom Kippur so most of the nation was in Synagogue and wasn't listening to the radio or answering telephones and it something that everyone knew. Truth be told the army should have planned a beter deployment should a war break out on Yom Kippur of all days. It wasn't planned to work that way of course, it just happened and Israel got lucky. It is not like that anymore. I'm sure it is a brigade commander's nightmare to have to organize something like that in the thick of battle. Remember Israel's size and remember that It can be sliced in a day should its active defense units be smashed.

But the reservists of the northern command fought to take the Golan just six years prior in 1967 and knew the area well. The few active tanks did a historic job in slowing the advance of 250 Egyptian tanks and the Artillery in the north did a fabulous job of grinding the Syrians to a halt. If the active army didn't do such a good job the nightmare scenario you think of in which you have unbriefed tank crews hopping into their armour would probably have unfolded in a horrific way.

Stan187

I'm confused. How are the reserves gonna be running into battle on the first day and be made into minced meat?

Blademaster

Read the above where Israelis reserves ran from their offices straight into the tanks as Druze tells as it is. Doing so would, as OOE puts it, greatly increase the fog of war and create much chaos and disorder for themselves. Furthermore, they would not know the situation fully at hand and may not be fully equipped. Against such a force like the 16th Guards, they would be made mincemeat. Even against a real army like Egypt or Turkey because they would be ready to face against Israelis opposition when the reserves don't know what they are up against.

Stan187

There was also an offensive in Gaza going on. Givati is one of the regforce brigades, and it was there, couldn't leave. Besides, if you use the whole of the regforce, then you're leaving in defense against other threats only reservists. At the time, there was thought to be a real possibility of escalation to wider conflict, with Syria in particular. The Golan ties up two of the best armored brigades.

AFAIK Regforce:
401 (Armor)
188 (Armor)-Golan
7 (Armor)-Golan
Nahal (Inf.)
Golani (Inf.)
Givati (Inf.)-Gaza
Paras (Inf.)-?
Kfir (Inf.)-West Bank (specialized in MOUT)

The unmarked ones went to Lebanon AFAIK. So at least 3 regforce brigades. Not sure if the paratroopers were there, I'd imagine, but I don't know.