cape_royds

Hi Aranthus:

Frankly, I think the stubbornness of the Palestinians and others when it comes to the Israeli recognition issue is downright counter-productive. However, I can understand why they think that way.

I note with interest your statement that Israel has made a "de facto" boundary claim with the Wall. Does this mean that Israel has yet to make a formal boundary claim? Is the article posted by Ray actually correct in this respect?

Ray

Rabin, ge was the only hope for Peace.

Even Sharon was changing!

Both sadly are not there to guide the Peace process!

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Ray

Try this"

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/int...-problems.html

beka

First of all comparing the German/Russian situation to well Poland/Germany is ridiculous..

Why? Because the Arabs were promised by the Allies in World War I, if they fought against the Ottomans which they did, that they could have all the Middle East as one nation (including yes, Palestine) and well they were screwed. And the point of the matter is that the Palestinians were the majority at the time.

As for the Palestinians/Arabs fighting the Israelis at the time, of course they did. Most of those people were not natives to the land, the Jewish people who were natives of the land, didn't want a Jewish state because they well feared how their neighbors would react. The Jewish people from the Middle EAst are still discriminated against in Israel by the European Jews..

The point is that if a group of settlers came into the area where your living, with weapons and announced that they were going to build a state on a part of your land, a state based on a religion that is different than the majority's, how would any normal person react. Why they would consider it an invasion and react accordingly. There is no sense of a "diplomatic solution" when you feel that one side is attempting to steal from you.. If the world told Americans that they had to give up part of their land, to Mexico do you think Americans would stand by idly? Would they not fight? That's what happened in Palestinian. And before the whole movement, there were actually more Christians in Palestine than Jews in Palestinian.
The comparision to giving Poland back to the Poles is ridiculous because the majority of the people in Poland where Polish and had lived on that land for centuries, not Russian... They just got rid of the Russian overlords. This is not the case in Palestinian. In fact the whole principle is that they felt betrayed because well the Allies didn't exactly give the Middle East back to the Arabs, like they promised.

So to say that well the Palestinians started it by fighting, what they could easily consider was an invasion is purely ridiculous. It's not like the Palestinians all moved into an area where there was a majority of Jewish people and announced they were building a state.

Stan187

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__________________
In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

beka

Fine some of the Palestinians lived in the Palestinian mandate for 2 years, but then one can ask how long did the Jewish refugees live there? The fact is that even if some of the Palestinians were "new" the Arabs where still the overwhelming majority in that land well before the mandate of Israel. This is an undisputed fact. And even articles written by Zionist leaders will say that yes, the best land was owned by Arabs, the Arabs populated the land These articles also expressed understanding why the Arabs didn't welcome the Jewish settles with open arms...

As for their being Jewish people living on the land, yes there was. And yes they have rights. But the before the 1900's, the Jewish people made up what 1 percent? And even when the British made that particular promise there was still hardly any Jewish people there.
In fact, half of the people living in Israel are immigrants and they have more rights than the Palestinians who were born on the land? Is that fair. A Palestinian who marries an Israeli cannot even get citizenship.

As for the Mexicans, yes the came to our country, and you have people complaining. But they haven't said, we are coming into America to build a New Mexico, where we will set up our own government based on our own traditions. No, most Mexicans want to just participate in the American democracy etc. Their children learn English and assimilate. It's a completely different scenario.

They aren't hear to create a nation where the elite will be Mexican and everyone else will be second class.

Stan187

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beka

No Stan my argument is that it's very historically clear that for over a thousand years, the Arab people were dwelling in Palestine and where the majority occupents. By right of self determin Whether some moved in/some moved out. Arabs were the overwhelming majority in Palestine. They joined the British and fought World War I, and the British should have kept their promise and given the Arabs the right of self determination. That is the right of people living in that land to determine what type of government they have and what kind of nation they have. Instead, the British, against the wishes of the native population allowed foreigners to immigrate to that land. Later on the UN let it happen. It doesn't mean such a thing was right or just. So yes, I think the Arabs of Israel (does it sound better to call them Arabs) have a right to be very ticked off over what happened.

JAD_333

I am tempted to say that we already have a New Mexico; it's a state. But I know that's not your point. Actually you state two points. That Mexicans don't come here to create an "israel". Well, that point doesn't work, because Mexicans have a country.

Your second point is better. Yes, some Mexicans here legally can become citizens and all the others here legally have most of the rights of Americans.
You're saying Palestinians residing in Israel don't have equal rights as a Mexican living here legally.

I am sorry to hear it. Maybe they should protest by moving to Gaza or Palestine.

__________________
To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education. (Plato)

JAD_333

So, if Israel can hold on for another 950 years, everything will be ok. Arabs were there 1,000 years you say and before that the Jews, who didn't all leave.

Who doesn't sympathize with the Palestians. Their plight after Israel was made a state for the Jews was terrible and still is not good. But I sympathize more with the Palestinian woman and children. The men made them suffer for an impossibility. They should have known that it was impossible for them even with all the Arabs by their side to defeat Israel, but they were blind and attacked. The UN and the west would never allow Israel to be defeated by the Arabs. That's a hard fact, but it is true. Thus, I would say to Palestinian men, make your peace with Israel for your children's sake. Don't make them go on suffering for an impossibility.

Stan187

The British also made a promise to Jews to create a homeland there. What else is new? Not the first time the Brits played both sides.

How long do a certain people have to live somewhere before it is their land? Twenty years? Two hundred years?

As far as the UN answer there, anyone who lived in "Palestine" for two years at some point before the partition is considered a Palestinian refugee. So are their children, and children's children and so on and so fourth. Well, anyone except Jews that is.

beka

So you are going to sit here and tell me that the majority of Palestinians living in Israel/Palestine at the time of the partion were immigrants? That's crap. There are articles by Jewish people who were studying Palestine to see if it could be a future Jewish state, and these articles talk about the fact that the land was already occupied by Arabs, that's in the late 1800's. It's a well known fact that the Arabs were living there and occupying that land.. It wasn't a desolate land, there were people living there, and those people's wants and needs should have been considered first.

It would be like if when Canada was a colony. The British decided that they were going to give away the land of Canada, not to the people who were living there, but instead they were going to move in people from New Zealand/ Africa and give them full control over Canada, regardless of how the citizens of Canada at the time felt. If the British had tried to do this to Canadians at the time, there would have been an outrcy from Western nations. However, it was okay to do this to the Arabs, because they are Arabs and not white, so some how there rights are non existent.

Stan187

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