mig21bis

You're taking what supports your argument, and disregarding what you don't like. Syria has said that the want to negotiate about the issue... once the Golan Heights are given back to them.

++++ What i like and what dont doesnt matter here....when Golan is returned to Syria....thats between Syria and Israel negotiate when return will happen....before or after peace agreement....






Of course, when Israeli citizens in the Galilee were being sniped at and barraged by artillery while the Syrians were still on the Golan, they were just making excuses too right?

++++ And when this sniping or artillery happened ? Before 1967 war....ever studied what was situation and who did what that time ? There was also something that Israel did before Syrians started shooting....





This is what bothers me about impartial UN troops patrolling a DMZ here. Mig21 was one of them. And by far does not seem neutral to me.

++++ Seems to me that you are ready to take explanations only from one side....i try to draw picture from both sides....and what would be equally balanced to both....

__________________
UNIFIL Lebanon 1991-1992
UNPROFOR Croatia 1994-1995
IFOR Bosnia 1996-1997

Stan187

I studied it, sir, and most likely much more than you have. The farmers there did nothing wrong besides for being alive.


We've seen how equally balanced you are, thank you very much.

__________________
In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

mig21bis

"I studied it, sir, and most likely much more than you have. The farmers there did nothing wrong besides for being alive."


++++ Lovely....you tell then what Israelis do and what did Syrians do ?


"We've seen how equally balanced you are, thank you very much."


++++ Listening only what Israelis say is not balanced....i have been position where i have to listen both....have you ?

Stan187

I have listened to what both have to say. I've also been paying attention to what each country is doing in the world. Israel has never attacked Syria unprovoked. On the other hand we got Syria, a terrorist-supporting totalitarian regime, that's supplying weapons to try to destroy Israel via proxy on one hand, and "genuine" offers of negotiations on the other hand, as according to you.

Good work, detective.

mig21bis

I have listened to what both have to say.I've also been paying attention to what each country is doing in the world. Israel has never attacked Syria unprovoked.

++++ Really....what Israel did in Syrian border ? You have studied this....





On the other hand we got Syria, a terrorist-supporting totalitarian regime, that's supplying weapons to try to destroy Israel via proxy on one hand, and "genuine" offers of negotiations on the other hand, as according to you.

++++ According to Israeli intelligence officials its genuine....





Good work, detective.


++++ Yeah....

Stan187

Are you going to make a point or do you want me to guess until I stumble upon your point?

Your are in contact with Israeli intelligence? You got all of their classified reports then, since Finland and Israel are such good allies?

Mind forwarding me this secret intelligence then?

If you really want to shake someone's hand, you don't try to claw them with the other hand.

And this still doesn't address the fact that they want land PRIOR TO beginning to negotiate which MIGHT or MIGHT NOT end in a peace settlement. Ooooh boy, detective, you've uncovered a bargain!

xerxes

I know that Israeli law does not allow annexed territory to be deattached from Israel. They will never give it back. It would be a huge strategic blunder.

xerxes

define terrorism ....

mig21bis

"Are you going to make a point or do you want me to guess until I stumble upon your point?"


++++ Moshe Dayan :


"For all those who are convinced of the perennial threat to the existence of Israel, we must read the interview of General Moshe Dayan, (the legendary Israeli General and Defence Minister and the victor of the "Six Day War of Aggression, in 1967") which he gave to Yediot Aharonot in 1976 and which was only published in April 27, 1997.

On being asked to comment about Syria as a threat to Israel in the 1967 War, this is what Moshe Dayan had to say.

"This was ********, Syria was not a threat to Israel before 1967. Just drop it. I know how at least 80 percent of all the incidents with Syria started. We were sending a tractor to the demilitarized zone and we knew that the Syrians would shoot. If they did not shoot, we would instruct the tractor to go deeper, till the Syrians finally got upset and started shooting. Then we employed artillery and later also the air force …. I did that ….and Yitzhak Rabin did that, when he was there."


"On April 7, 1967, a minor border incident escalated into a full-scale aerial battle over the Golan Heights, resulting in the loss of six Syrian MiG-21s to Israeli Air Force (IAF) Dassault Mirage III, and the latter's flight over Damascus.[19] Tanks, heavy mortars, and artillery were used in various sections along the 47 mile (76 km) border in what was described as "a dispute over cultivation rights in the demilitarized zone south-east of Lake Tiberias." Earlier in the week, Syria had twice attacked an Israeli tractor working in the area and when it returned on the morning of 7 April the Syrians opened fire again. The Israelis responded by sending in armour-plated tractors to continue ploughing, resulting in further exchanges of fire. Israeli aircraft dive-bombed Syrian positions with 250 and 500 kg bombs. The Syrians responded by shelling Israeli border settlements heavily and Israeli jets retaliated by bombing the village of Sqoufiye destroying around 40 houses. At 1519 Syrian shells started falling on Kibbutz Gadot; over 300 landed within the kibbutz compound in 40 minutes.[20] UNTSO attempted to arrange a ceasefire, but Syria declined to co-operate unless Israeli agricultural work was halted.[21]"


Blaming only one side in this mess is stupid....it needs two to tango...






"Your are in contact with Israeli intelligence? You got all of their classified reports then, since Finland and Israel are such good allies?

++++ ? Funny...




Mind forwarding me this secret intelligence then?"


++++ Hardly so secret if its published in news :



FM: Before agreeing to talks, we must ask if Syria wants peace - Haaretz - Israel News

Stan187

I love the contradiction there Mr. Neutral and unbias.

So shooting at unarmed tractors is ok with you? I'm glad your heart is in the right place.

My friend's dad lived in one of those Galilee kibbutzim. They were shot at while in their own home, constantly. And this was not uncommon. People spent half of their days in bomb shelters. Daily sniper fire and artillery barrages on civilians. But let's just go along with your plan and put them back in those positions, so that Syria can give Hizballah weapons to shoot at those people and then say "It wasn't us".

mig21bis

I love the contradiction there Mr. Neutral and unbias.

++++ I havent seen your comment where you equally blame both sides....




So shooting at unarmed tractors is ok with you?

++++ So sending tractor purposefully place where is danger that other side would react is ok with you ?

Or you just ignored what Mr. Dayan said ?

"If they did not shoot, we would instruct the tractor to go deeper, till the Syrians finally got upset and started shooting."








I'm glad your heart is in the right place.

++++ It is....i´m blaming both sides using methods which usually leads to war or conflict....





My friend's dad lived in one of those Galilee kibbutzim.

++++ Is this your "source" of studies ?



They were shot at while in their own home, constantly. And this was not uncommon. People spent half of their days in bomb shelters. Daily sniper fire and artillery barrages on civilians.

++++ Shooting creates more shooting.....



But let's just go along with your plan and put them back in those positions,

++++ What is legally theirs....



so that Syria can give Hizballah

++++ We are not now in Lebanon....


weapons to shoot at those people and then say "It wasn't us".


++++ Both sides are blamed here.....do you just wanna give credit to other side ?

Stan187

I'm not going to blame both sides equally. The fault is not equal. I don't have to be neutral, as you notice I'm not a peacekeeper, I just call it how I see it. The Galilee was never legally Syria's, so shooting at it is illegal. However, no international courts solved the problem. If taking the Golan solved the problem, I don't see anything wrong with that. Syria slowly forfeited its legitimate claim on the land by using it for the purposes of cross-border aggression against civilians, pure and simple.

Sending tractors in unarmed to till land should not illicit an armed response, whether they should have been sent there or not is moot, to shoot at them is a crime.

My sources of studies are vast. Along with reading official books, I try to understand people's experiences by talking to them. I see nothing wrong with that, I didn't say this is an official source. You on the other hand cited a great historical personage and didn't cite where it came from, so please spare me. I never claimed for it to come from an official document now did I?

It takes two to tango, no doubt. Seeing both sides involved in a dispute equally does not amount to each side being responsible equally. That's like saying that when someone was murdered, it is 50% their fault. Learn to differentiate between the two.

This is what happens in war, some sides loose and some sides win. Winners don't just randomly give back land to the losers. No one expects that, unless they're Jews, of course. Has Poland given back territory which was German and the property which Germans own? No. Is it expected to? No.

You can't have the cake and eat it too. You want peace? Fine. Let's have peace. You can't set conditionalities onto it. Then again, that's not even the Syrian offer. The trade is not peace-for-land, its negotiations-for-land. No one wouldn't take such a terrible deal, so don't blame rational people who also won't.

mig21bis

I'm not going to blame both sides equally. The fault is not equal.

++++ Ah....


On being asked to comment about Syria as a threat to Israel in the 1967 War, this is what Moshe Dayan had to say.

"This was ********, Syria was not a threat to Israel before 1967. Just drop it. I know how at least 80 percent of all the incidents with Syria started. We were sending a tractor to the demilitarized zone and we knew that the Syrians would shoot. If they did not shoot, we would instruct the tractor to go deeper, till the Syrians finally got upset and started shooting. Then we employed artillery and later also the air force …. I did that ….and Yitzhak Rabin did that, when he was there."


The Golan Heights: A History of Israeli Aggression








I don't have to be neutral, as you notice I'm not a peacekeeper, I just call it how I see it. The Galilee was never legally Syria's, so shooting at it is illegal.

++++ Many shootings are illegal...no doubt about it



However, no international courts solved the problem.

++++ UN security council has tried solve many times....comes US veto and that blocks that solving....or Israel just ignores those :


Security Council

S/RES/497 (1981)
17 December 1981
Resolution 497 (1981)

Adopted by the Security Council at its 2319th meeting
on 17 December 1981

The Security Council,

Having considered the letter of 14 December 1981 from the Permanent Representative of the Syrian Arab Republic contained in document S/14791,

Reaffirming that the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible, in accordance with the United Nations Charter, the principles of international law, and relevant Security Council resolutions,

1. Decides that the Israeli decision to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights is null and void and without international legal effect;

2. Demands that Israel, the occupying Power, should rescind forthwith its decision;

3. Determines that all the provisions of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 continue to apply to the Syrian territory occupied by Israel since June 1967;

4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the implementation of this resolution within two weeks and decides that in the event of non-compliance by Israel, the Security Council would meet urgently, and not later than 5 January 1982, to consider taking appropriate measures in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.




If taking the Golan solved the problem, I don't see anything wrong with that.

++++ Is this result of your studies ? Maybe you should expand your studies in heavy weight series....try this :


The Geneva Conventions: the core of international humanitarian law




Syria slowly forfeited its legitimate claim on the land by using it for the purposes of cross-border aggression against civilians, pure and simple.

++++ But thank god Israel has never done the same ?





Sending tractors in unarmed to till land should not illicit an armed response, whether they should have been sent there or not is moot, to shoot at them is a crime.


++++ True....and purposefully stir up trouble, and then claim other side as "responsible".....lovely studies you have made....





My sources of studies are vast. Along with reading official books,

++++ Which are what books ? I know lots of books too....worth of toiletpaper...





I try to understand people's experiences by talking to them.

++++ Try talk to both sides next time....




I see nothing wrong with that, I didn't say this is an official source. You on the other hand cited a great historical personage and didn't cite where it came from, so please spare me.

++++ " interview of General Moshe Dayan" "which he gave to Yediot Aharonot in 1976"....Israeli newspaper....




I never claimed for it to come from an official document now did I?

It takes two to tango, no doubt. Seeing both sides involved in a dispute equally does not amount to each side being responsible equally. That's like saying that when someone was murdered, it is 50% their fault.

++++ Lets try to keep issues and issues separated....




Learn to differentiate between the two.

++++ Khm....and you have ? "That's like saying that when someone was murdered, it is 50% their fault."

Like this...uh ?




This is what happens in war, some sides loose and some sides win. Winners don't just randomly give back land to the losers.

++++ Now you wanna compete against international law ?



No one expects that, unless they're Jews, of course.

++++ I dont see how as "jews" got something to do with this....or do you try to turn issue "evil axis" vs. "free world"....



Has Poland given back territory which was German and the property which Germans own? No. Is it expected to? No.

++++ Again....try to focus this case....dont drag in countrys or groups outside of area....lets talk those in other topic ok ?





You can't have the cake and eat it too. You want peace? Fine. Let's have peace. You can't set conditionalities onto it.

++++ No i dont....and btw....either dont you



Then again, that's not even the Syrian offer. The trade is not peace-for-land, its negotiations-for-land. No one wouldn't take such a terrible deal, so don't blame rational people who also won't.

+++++ Yeah....so lets just forget international laws etc.....who needs them ?

After all....there is Israel in other side and that makes all laws disappear ?

troung

Syria and Israel have talked about this before and both sides have made offers and counter offers. The issue is not whether to talk first or hand over land first the reason a settlement was not reached in the 1990s was over a few meters which leads into the most important regional issue; water.

There are a handful of settlers of the Golan, not the religious nuts, and a bunch of people who are still Syrian citizens live there as well. So it is not a "painful" thing for Israel to give up which is why they have offered it up in the past.

Once both sides reach a deal they can live with the Israelis will hand over the Golan in exchange for diplomatic relations and a demilitarized border.

__________________
To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

xerxes

^^^

three things

1) the heights is know to be a source of water
2) Israeli law doesnot allow annexed territory to be deattached
3) Syria is not a military threat,

why would I as an israeli exchange a great and strategic piece of land with Israel's enemy.