Anony

As i said there is a difference between what people do and what the religion says. Why did you forget christians. There are christians in the palestenian militants. Might as well insult the churches the IDF destroyed for recruiting them for resistance. You have to realise there is a difference between terrorism and resistance. If you call people who kill IDF soldiers who are demolishing their homes terrorism , then I what is your definition of resistance ? Letting soldiers demolish their homes ? How can you explain that ? Does Yisrael have moral backing of demolishing homes of non-Jews ? Alot of propaganda is going around that Yisrael is about to get wiped out by arab terrorists. This is not the case at all. Yisrael has the ability to wipe out the arab countries with their nukes at any time.

Again yes killing Israelis on a bus is terrorism and whoever does it has a different interpretation of Islam. Instead of saying "morality crap" and showing your anger you can argue in a more dignified manner. If you are a Jew and I meet you , I will greet you with utmost respect, you should follow the same route. If you don't like my point of view there are better words to use.

And may I ask you what ticked you off ? I have not insulted a single Israeli or Judaism in the whole post, you come back insulting Islam as a whole. I have not read the Torah or the Talmud to judge Judaism, and neither have you read the Qur'an to judge Islam. Instead of listening to the media can you please do your own self research? How about visiting an arab country yourself and see how us fellow "terrorists" live for a change ? Our whole life objective is not to "destroy Israel" as many believe, or wipe it out. I watch a variety of news channels from AL jazeera to CNN, I dont stick to the news channel that suits my belief and i dont get "ticked off" when someone disagrees with me.

And lastly, I find it hypocritical to point out to the Palestenian military actions and ignore what the IDF is doing to palestenian civilians. what about the massacre that killed 18 people very recently ? Is one Palestenian life worth less than your life ? There are atrocities on both sides, but resistance remains resistance, terrorism remains terrorism. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, If Yisrael is truly liberating the West Bank and Gaza why don't they provide them with the same facilities as they have in Tel Aviv ? Or is it just IDF presence without any value ?

The only reason i went into religion is to explain what Jihad truly means. Nowadays i don't believe that there is any wars done on the bases of religion. Us Muslims don't have any moral code to kill Jews for no reason. Read the history of the Ottoman Empire and see what they did for the Jews when the Spanish Reconquista forced an expulsion of Jews from there.
All these wars , in my own opinion, are for interests of each country. There is no good and bad guys like cops and robbers. you may have other opinions but express them in a good manner, and avoid insults. Thanks

Ray

You have a sound argument Anony.

I also concede that most ahve no idea of the Koran.

Do explain how these blokes who have no idea of Koran, know the word 'jihad' and that too not the way you describe it?

Why do they know 'jihad' be it the little or the big (which also they don't know) and not the good stuff?

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Jay

First things first, I'm not a Jew and I dont live/been to Israel. I dont believe in the IDF killings of Palestinians either.

As I said, I wrote that post as a bystander. I didnt congradulate IDF for killing innocent Palestinians. I just condned what the Palestinian terror groups did to "civilian" Israelis (not jews, but Israelis).

True, thats why the Arab countries under the pretext of helping Palestiniand liberation, actively encourages Paletnians terror groups to attack and bleed Israel. They have a spotless record while the whole world is bitter on Palestiniand "resistance" groups.

Still the mosques "the place of worship for muslims" is used as a breeding ground. an ordinary person will not be able to say who fllows what kind of Islam, unless sane muslims purge the extremists from Islam.
I said morality crap, coz muslims seem to dismiss any non-muslim reports against islamic extremists as zionist propoganda and keep on harping that Islam gave the right for self-determination, jihad or what not. I'm really tired of my people getting killed by these extremists who proclaim that they follow the word and will of God.

No I didnt insult Islam. All I said was, as long as the islamic terrorists keep on using mosques as shields and issue fatwa against other religion during their sermons, people wud be wary of any muslim and will try to protect their family from them.

May be not for you, but how many Arab/muslim nations have recognized Israel? eh? And I got ticked off coz people (in general) seem to shrug off their responsibilites by just saying Islam is not advcating violence, all these terrorists are not muslims etc etc, but none of them take any concreate steps to stop this cancer. As the middle east gets poor and poor we'll see more problems like these.

Thanks for accepting it. But there are still millions more to accept this reality. And thanks for the analogy, terrorists are terrorists everywhere, let it be Palestine or Kashmir.

__________________
A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

visioninthedark

By the way .... I just wanted to point out to Anony ... Jay and Ray are both INDIANS from the great nation of INDIA in Asia.

__________________

Please visit http://www.visiongwadar.com/platinum/index.html

Jay

Thanks for your kind introduction. May I return the favour, Anony, Vision is from the Land of Pure, Pakistan in Asia.

Thanks for mentioning the geographic location of India, you couldve been more specific by quoting the Latitude and Longitude of India, in case Anony didnt know where India exist.

ZFBoxcar

Even Hamas said it was one of their training camps.

Anony

Oh sorry, about that. I thought Pittsburg, PA (in the USA) and an inscription of what I thought was Hebrew was a giveaway. ( although after a close look i realised it could be malyalam, hindi or sanksriit ?) Anyway nevertheless I hope I made it clear that I am in not in "enemy" mode with the Jews as media stereotypes.

There are alot of reasons. Poverty, ignorance, many have gone through experiences me and you just don't understand and may get brainwashed by leaders. I was watching this program in Al Jazeera where a sheikh from al azhar mosque said that applied islam was in serious need of reform.

Thinking about it, Islam as it is now , would NEVER have raised any great empires in the past if it was practised as it is today . So I can only say that as the years past the applied part of Islam only became clouded and more corrupted and as that sheikh said in need of reform. After the Prophet Muhammed died, there was an election to chose the next muslim leader, but it was done with the votes coming from the representatives of the various tribes not by individuals like nowdays. Now look at all the wonderful dictators 'Islamic' countries have. Everything had gone wrong.

Many people nowdays think that Islam is about marrying 4 wives whenever you want, killing any Jew or Christian you see in sight, persecuting women and prisoning them, etc. However these are just examples here and there practised by 'muslims' , and the media is happy to state that is a central part of Islam. However I can never say Catholics are Halocaust advocators because Hitler was a so called "Catholic" and no media with a sane mind would say such a thing. Bad people are around the world from ALL religions, no matter how peaceful a religion is. It is rather unfair to attribute anything done by a small number of people to the religion they belong to.

I am not describing jihad on my own way , that is what is written in the Quran and you can check it any time you want. I was just quoting and I have given the verse numbers too with it. When you look at people living inside war, and living in a society with constant wars, you will know why they interpret it as they will. Its not 100% their fault, but still it doesn't make terrorism right.

Also in my opinion, I don't consider militias in Iraq who solely target American SOLDIERS are terrorists. That is what i call resistance. They are Shias and Sunnis and not Saddam's soldiers. Many of the Americans do have good motives, but you cannot convince any nation , no matter how good your motives are , that you are there to liberate and occupy at the same time. Especially when the initial 'liberation' took away thousands of civilian lives. Conquering Afghanistan and Iraq has many interests to the USA other than stopping global terrorism ( which i don't think can be stopped, where there is a will theres a way, even for killers).

I sencerely support the voices in America that oppose the war on Iraq, especially that they didn't find any substantial WMDs. All that Bush can say after no WMDS were found was that there were reports on " Weapons of mass destruction related program activities". This is no reason to conquer any country.

However I also support the voices in America when they support the war believing sincerely that it is good for the Iraqis, but i think they have to understand that no country spends a large military budget for the good of other countries nowdays. If that was the case, America should focus more on central african countries., which are much easier to conquer and 'libarate;. Or am i wrong?

However hostage takers are what I call true terrorism. And i really don't like it when on the news they say that these are the actions of "Fundamentalist Muslims" . Whoever builds on the Fundamentals of Islam cannot perform such actions, "fanatics" are the true word they should use , without any mention to religion. These things can really destroy relations between Christians, Muslims and Jews around the world who don't know anything about politics and media tricks.

visioninthedark

We have similar programs on our govt. and private channels as well!

The moral demise started with the rise of Wahabbism ... !

and the silence of the mainstream muslims ...

now ... this is changing ...

Thanks to Wahabbism and the saudi "royals" ...

Someone needs to explain this to the brainwashed fanatics who follow the wahabbi cult ...

ZFBoxcar

Its usually historically inevitable for such things to happen. When a civiliation becomes successful, they start looking at history very seriously. And they try to keep what they were doing identical to the way it was before. The problem worsens when the civilization begins a decline because then the desire to immitate the past becomes more urgent.

Anony, even though I sort of agree with your analysis, what is a religion but the sum of its followers? If a billion people are following a religion and call it Islam, saying it isn't really Islam is just obscuring the issue rather than helping. I think Israel is the biggest obstacle to Islamic reform. And as a pro-Israel Jew, I don't mean it in a way hostile to Israel. I mean that Israel provides such a focus for hate in the Muslim world that internal factors are put aside, such as Sunni/Shia divisions, issues of poverty, corrupt dictatorial leadership, etc. Such unions are useful to a civilization during a war or some sort of struggle. But the war with Israel is all but over. The final act is being played out now. Once Israelis and Palistinians are separated, and maybe some spat with Iran, it will just be a cold war. The fact of the matter is, in objective terms, Israel just isn't DOING anything to the Muslim world. But by not looking at that simple fact, the unnatural stifiling of dissent caused by struggle is kept going. It needs to end so that the historical struggle between the old and new can get going again. The way I see it playing out is the Theocrats in Iran will either reform or be destroyed and a slow liberalization will take place. Possibly a similar phenomon in Pakistan Scholars/reformists from the Wahabi and Baathist regimes will flee. When Iran and Pakistan prosper far beyond the Arab world, they will change too. Of course I could be wrong, but we will never know until events are allowed to keep playing out again, which means people just have to get over the fact that Israel exists and recognize that the Palestinian struggle is not theirs and will be over soon anyways.

Anony

Thanks vision for remiding me.. I forgot to mention the corrupt government of Saudi Arabia. the word "Saudi" comes from the royal family name So3ood !! talk about freedom

ZFBoxcar, A religion consists of two parts. Its followers AND its theory. The billion or so Muslims in the world aren't part of 1 religion. There are different sects, just like in judaism and christianity. You supporting the Israeli cause is fine by me, but must others suffer so that Yisrael could prosper ? Yisrael's main rival before 1978 was Egypt, now they don't have any other rival to worry about. The IAF ran over the SAF in lebanon, its very clear they have no worthy regional rivals.

Yisrael has enough technology to wipe out Iran and enough technology to stand out an Irani attack, and the best intellegence in the world the Mossad. I think all these treats i hear about are just words. Neither country would dare to attack the other in the curreny circumstances, however I may not be right.


I personally know alot of Palestenians and alot of them look at Arafat as a ******, because of the corrupted PLO that he has established which really doesnt represent palestenian people, however they are unhappy not being able to walk normally in the cities they were born in, as any remotely suspicious activity can get them killed by IDF soldiers. It doesn't feel good carrying a Jodanian passport when you are born in the West Bank.

ZFBoxcar, you are right about civilization decline. History has also proven that no empire, no matter how great it is will survive . There is always a fall in one empire, and the rise of another. The problem is now the world has reached a stage where it can annihilate the whole planet, which really worries me about how the next major war will be like.

Anyway you should be an example to others on how to argue calmly without any anger . It would be nice if this could happen between Muslims and Jews worldwide.

Ray

Vision,

I thought countries alone have the kind of money to hire lobbyist.

I am pleased that I have achieved the financial status of a country and you are my Lobbyist.

Ray

Anhoni,

My brother in law is a Jew. He is calm and he doesn't even argue.

Of course, it could be because he is far from the action, safely tucked away in Canada.

ZFBoxcar

Its not about Israel's fears, its about the good of the Muslim world. I'm not talking about threats to Israel's existance I'm talking about the effect that perpetual "war" is having on the mentality of the average Muslim and Israeli. Israelis have developped a siege mentality. While Muslims have developped a 'unity' mentality which prevents open, honest debate and reform from taking place.

Depends what you mean by survive. By stemming the tides of change, a civilization IS likely to collapse. But if change does not mean destruction, they don't have to die.

Anony

well never said Jews are not calm .

Btw i just read your signature. you look like a patriotic guy

smilingassassin

Thanks Truth, its nice to see you completely missed my point and made an instant accusation. You obviously haven't payed attention to my countless posts in this forum, so I could really care less about your uninformed responce.

I was not refering to the average Palestinian when I said I see many of them as "just animals", I was refering to those who blame Israel for the crimes of Arafat, I was refering to those who throw the future in the trash can and strap explosives to themselves and murder inocent human beings. I was refering to those who stand idly by as a terrorist plans his act of genocide in the name of Allah. I was refering to the animals in Palestine which number far more than 1% of the population.

How can you expect the Palestinians to create a nation if they cannot hold their leaders to account for these crimes, cannot vote, and do nothing to stop the violence? Do nothing and you get zero results.