Confed999

First thing in a Google search: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world...niversity.html There's 5. :-(

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I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

Praxus

If Hamas has attacked us or not is irrelivent (they have). Their ideaolgy is hostile to individual rights and reason. They can not be allowed to exsist.

I am not basing my thinking on emotion. You say it is wrong to target civilians but you don't give me anymore explanation besides "it's just wrong because their civilians and that's what seperates us from them"(paraphrasing).

The civilians are the moral responsibility of the Government, in this case the PLO. Everytime a so called innocent palestinine dies from Israeli attacks it is because the PLO refuses to protect it's peoples rights and they refuse to crack down on the Islamists.

All those truely innocent and thoose viamently against the dictatorships in the middle east, their first act should be to overthrow the dictator in power and join the side of Israel. By their action or rather their inaction they are either passively supporting the dictatorships, monarchys, and theocracys or they are directly supporting them. Neither group of people, we should place over the life of Israeli citizens(Jewish and Arab a like).

In a society were there is no private property you can not claim that putting up a fence is violating their property. Only individuals and groups of people can own/claim property(like the seterlers in the west bank). If the property is owned by the state it is owned by no one, therefor they have the moral right to claim that land.



ALL DEATHS IN A WAR ARE THE MORAL RESPONSIBILITY OF THE INITIATOR OF FORCE.

Ray

Good logic.

By that logic, Whether Al Qeda was attacked or not is irrelevamt to Al Qeada I presume.


Therefore they are justified in shoving airplanes into buildings and killing thousands of innocents?

Silly logic.

PLO is a govt? What govt. That bloke is confined to one building. He is the govt? If so. funny govt indeed. Anyway, Hamas was give support by Israel to counterbalance the other lunatic called Arafat. Likewise, Sharon is a lunatic.

Lets be clear it serves everyone's purpose to keep the pot on the boil.

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"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Praxus

According to my logic if you protect individual rights you have a right to exsist, if you don't you don't. This is my morality.

It's not very hard, it contains no contradictions.

I don't know how you could get something like what you said out of what I said.

Trooth

That is your society and you are telling me that is how the palestinian society is structured. I will have to research further whether or not the palestinian famers own the land based on your view of ownership. However if they gain their livelihood from that land, and a large fence is placed in their way between them and said land they should receive compensation, or be let across to work the land. Otherwise it is theft. Either to the letter of whichever jurisidiction's property rights you propose or morally, in that people are going to suffer.

Your caps lock appears to be stuck on.

Praxus

I don't think you understand, the palestinians support a would be dictator, they have no rights. Thoose that would join the side of Israel and fight for their rights a long side Israel do have rights and Israeli's should respect it.

Brilliant, smart ass.

Trooth

Ah well. You managed to stay on the straight and narrow for a few posts.

Confed999

LOL, come on, you were being a smart-ass.

Trooth

but netiquette is netiquette, i haven't shouted at anyone.

bigross86

It's a real shame that I had to leave to Jerusalem for a week right when this discussion started, but I will be able to pop in occasionaly to give my two (or perhaps more) cents.

From where I'm sitting (Jerusalem now, Israel in general) I applauded the fact that they shoved three missiles up his ass. My friends and I all rejoiced and sang in the middle of class. You may call us barbarians, pigs, teenagers with absolutely no respect, or whatever you want but it's our opinion and in the country that I live in, you're allowed to have one. Palestinians don't have that right.

If you had to ask me for the one difference between Israel and Palestine, aside from the obvious terror-non terror, democracy-dictatorship difference, I would have to say it's that Israel gives a damn. I could give you the examples of the 10 year old unknowingly carrying a bomb in his bag, or the 15 year old who wanted to kill himself because he had no friends. Or I could give you the example of the unending terror or the so called "Hudna" that we had last year. That lasted about two weeks.

The example I'd like to give you, however, is the IDF. First of all, the not-succesful attack they had on Yassin last year. The main reason it wasn't succcesful was because the IAF used a 250kg bomb instead of a 500kg bomb to minimize collateral damage. I don't recall the Palestinians doing that anywhere. Than the succesful attack. The fact that they could mount a succesful operation on the short notice they had, and then keep everyone safe after every terror orginization worth its salt promised to rain death and destruction down on Israel shows that Israel cares. It cares for it's civilians, it's soldiers, and for humans in general.

Jews who commit a crime or who turn traitor and betray the government will still get a fair trial. If you think Palestinians also do, I beg you to look towards the beginning of the Intifada, when those two Arab, not Muslim, Arab reserve soldiers in the IDF were lynched.

I'd like to discuss this more, but unfortunately I have to get off to work and go make mucho dinero, but I will try to pop in here occasionaly.

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Trooth

I don't remember equating Israel and Palestine on a national level. I do remember equating their actions.

The fact is 250Kg, or 500 Kg is a lot of HE, and it is going to cause a lot of damage. Innocents have been killed by both sides. Neither side seems to be winning using this strategy. Yes the Palestinians are targetting innocents, but Israel is still putting innocents in harms way. We are only talking shades of the same strategy.

The fact that the IDF managed to hasten an old man to his death means that young people will now die. Some would have died anyway, but not all. Is it worth it? Another martyr was createed, more young men in Palestine tied their headbands the day after than the day before. Is it a strategy that is going to solve the problem?

I personally think not, because it hasn't for how many years now?

bigross86

But doing what you do goes against my personal beliefs, and agains't what the government is rightly doing. To sit around and do nothing says a couple things:

1-It sets a precedence that if you commit enough atrocities, then even a nation like Israel will fold and collapse eventually.

2-It shows that Terror has won. To sit around cuz you're too scared to go out for a movie or go to the mall means Terror has won. And even if Israel may be the last stronghold against Terror, then I know that Terror will never win here because we are not afraid.

Trooth

I am not saying do nothing. I say go out and enjoy yourself (just be careful).

But i fail to see the wisdom in pursuing a strategy that isn't working and hasn't for decades.

Cycling round tit for tat killings has never worked. And by getting sucked into this, Israel is fighting the battle the terrorists want as they are all happy to be martyred - gets them salvation quicker. So either Israel martyrs them all in one almighty bloodbath or it tries to resolve the underlying problem. I realise this isn't a one way street, it isn't all for Israel to do and certainly Israel has taken leaps forward before, but it has also taken big backward steps. My current view is that it is heading backwards.

The war on terror has made osme of the traditional tit for tat actions more paletable to the west, as you can see on this messageboard. But terrorism is more than 3 years old in Israel and will continue for a lot longer.

bigross86

True, terrorism will continue but lately it's been, Thank God, only single sided killings. The Israeli Security Forces have been doing an amazing job keeping the citizens safe. Last Friday Ma'ariv (the Israeli Newspaper) published a headline stating that Arafat sent a letter to the CIA syaing that he fears for his life and is scared of the Israelis. That's a good thing. If we can get more Palestinians to be scared, ewspecially the higher-ups, than there will be less killings.

Officer of Engineers

Who won the war between the IRA and 22SAS?

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