Praxus

Oh so you think if Israel stoped fighting the Palestinians would just stop fighting?

I suppose if we didn't fight Japan till they surrendured they would not continue a further assault on the United States?

On one side you have the ideas of reason, science, capitalism, and individual rights. On the other side you have the ideas of mysticism and fascism.

Israel sacrificing it's land for the good of people that initiate the use of force against them is a moral crime. It is sentencing it's people to death.

They are attacking the west, not just the jews.

Ray

This guy who was killed was initially given support by the Israel govt to be a counterbalance to Arafat. He later turned out be a Frankenstein.

The magnitude of the problem is not being visualised by you in the West since you have not been under actual terrorists actions daily.

Actually, all this tit for tat won't work, especially since Islam is a different kettle of fish as far as religions go.

It is clearly one of Islam's religious 'truth' that by dying for Islam one goes to Heaven. If someone believes in that, then the situation is very difficult since killing him wont make a damn difference to him or his family. If one believes that it is better to be in the next world in Heaven than living out one's life on Earth, then what we are doing is not going to be successful. One down, another surfaces and so on. Multiplication, that is the name of the game.

Walls also cannot stop anyone. Remember, the Berlin Wall?

The only way to ensure sanity in the region is get them more modern education and let them improve their standard of living. Maybe then, they might feel that living the present life on Earth fully is better than dying for an illusory rosy next life. Their mindset has to be changed and that cannot be through bullets since it is a matter of pride to die for Islam. The psychology is indeed scary.

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Praxus

By that logic we are fighting an unwinable war where we should give up and offer ourselves as sacrificial offerings to a vicious enemy.

Israel needs to wage a real war, where the enemy casulties are in the hundereds of thousands. If they continue to fight to the last man then so be, let that last man die.

bigross86

Couple prolems with that:

World Opinion- As you all very well know the Jews aren't too high up on many nations liking list at the moment.

Religion-"Religion is but Opium for the masses" and the Muslims in the region seem to be pretty stoned.

Numbers-7 million people in Israel, not all of them Jews, another approx 6-7 million Jews worldwide, as opposed to 250 million Muslims. That's approximately 20833333:1 odds against us.

__________________
You're a naughty girl, go to my room!

Ray

Jews have survived many programs in Europe. They have suffered the gas chambers too. They will still survive. It is their will and ingenuity that makes them survive - always and every time.

In India, we had many Jews and still have. Fortunately, the European dislike for Jews have never surfaced here in all our history. It is only when one read history that one was surprised of the indignities that was heaped on them in Europe. Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice was so poignant of the injustice on Jews. However, you have to give it to the Europeans that many of them were bold enough to speak out like Shakespeare!

In School I won the Elocution contest for Shylock's speech, 'Signior Antonio many a time and oft in the realto.....'. The sadness of Shylock has sort of ignited me that injustice on race and religion is the worst thing that can happen to humanity!

Ray

You are missing the point. The war is winnable, but by changing the mindset. Musharraf has been changed and he is quite a devout Moslem.

Be like Powell and Bush, change the mindset who changed Musharraf. One Musharraf is not enough. Let all little Musharrafs, Arafats, all every other Moslem named man's mindset requires changing. It will take time. Killing all Moslems will not only take longer, but we have to wait till Doomsaday and it will still not change!

Trooth

Very emotional, but i am not sure of the relevance. AQ, however Fox News would like to descrive them, are not and have never been a threat the the stability or freedom of America. As OofE put it, 9//11, 11M etc are pin pricks in the great scheme of things. Even the much feared dirtys nukes etc are not in anyway comparable to the IJN. The japs, as you know, where expanding their empire to control the pacific, AQ are not planning on invading Hawaii.

Difficult to spot which side is which, lots of mysticism on both sides in Israel/Palestine.

They are dieing anyway, and ownership of the land is a heavily disputed issue, is it not.
And noone seems to care why. And yet in this very thread is one of the reasons. In a few years time, when some of the issues behind the war on terror have fizzled out a little, then perhaps, just perhaps, people will start doing some analysis to work out exactly why they are attacking the west. But until we do that, until we stop hiding behind platitudes usch as "they hate freedom" as the sole motive that these people have, this war will continue.

Trooth

I have always been sympathetic to a nation surrounding by water and enemies, however at this moment in time i struggle to seperate the two sides in terms of the intrinsic approaches to the rpoblem. From what i can see both sides are fuelled by a religious desire to remove the other from "their" land.

Using those numbers it would be 20:1 against you. But i thought there were more muslims than that (taking the ratio to closer to 100:1. However, as i have said before, regarding the muslim terrorists, when the cause seems hopeless people fight harder.

Which, i think is part of the problem. Both sides can claim that land. Both sides can even see each other's claims. The problem, i think will only be resolved by sharing it. Building a wall around the land just makes those on the outside want it more.

ChrisF202

O, but the Palestinian leadership is the most stable?

Trooth, I will be bashed for this, but I feel that if the Israelis ever just stop fighting, the Arabs will overrun them and well, Europe is next on their list. So would you pefer the Israelis stop them or would you rather wait until they blow up your wife or your son? The Israelis HAVE to stop them now, if it means sending tanks to Damascus and Bierut, let it be. If they dont do anything, Hamas will just blow up another 500 innocent civilians.

Trooth

Clearly it isn't, but i wasn't comparing them to the Palestinians as I wasn't aware they had Nukes.

I see no reason to bash you. Mainly because your post is just hyperbole. Having lived all my life with the threat of terror, i do not fear Hamas just as i do not fear the IRA. 500 sounds like a lot. But as the area i live in has 12 million people, you seem to be offering me better odds than crossing the street!

Where is this great masterplan for an Arab invasion of Europe? Can you post a copy?

Both the Israeli's and the Palestinians are conducting terror campaigns against each other. There is little difference in dropping a bomb onto a car in a ghetto from a plane as there is using a car bomb. Both are not going to solve the problem and simply galvanise the victims to strike back. It really doesn't matter on your interpretation of provocation. What we all know is that it doesn't work.

ChrisF202

I belive that the goal of the Muslim militant groups is to make everyone either 1) a Muslim or 2) dead, they used to own parts of Europe (Spain, Balkans, etc), thats why they bombed a train in Spain.

Confed999

When an enemy military leader sticks his head up, that enemy leader gets blown up. There is a major difference between blowing up an enemy military leader and a 8 year old school girl.
And living under Islamic law. Everyone else is the enemy to them.

__________________
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

Trooth

Hee hee a thousand years of history in three lines. If you are goniing to use such a compression factor you can "prove" anything you like.

Religions preach that only salvation is only for those that testify to their faith, BTW.

The claim by the bombers is that they blew up the trains in Spain because Spain supported the US in the war in Iraq. I don't remember them claiming Spain as a muslim territory. But i could be wrong.

Praxus

No they are planning on destroying the west by attacking and destroying it's philosophy based on reason and the rational persuite of science, and so far it's working. Spain is a perfect example, there is an attack and the spanish people embrace a person with a philosophy based on the idea that it is mans duty to sacrifice himself for the good of others. The belief in Altruism is the first step to suicide.

They reject reason, it is as simple as that. They view science as an evil, yet they blame everyone else for their poverty. They continue to support dictatorships in their own land, they oppose Capitalism and then again blaim it on the west.

They are attacking us because philosophicaly the United States and Israel are complete opposites to Islam. You are underesimating the power of the wrong ideals.

Trooth

I would argue that prior to Spain's joining of the "big two" in the Azores, 90% of the Spanish people had been against the war on terror. 11-M occurs and Aznar's government starts immediately blaming Eta. Why? Because to blame AQ would mean that Aznar's actions had brought a war the Spanish people didn't want into their Capital city. When it becomes clear it was AQ and not Eta, the Spanish epole then felt the government had lied to them to get them into a war they didn't want,a nd then lied to them about the consequences.

Getting rid of Aznar's party was therefore a logical conclusion to a government that clearly was operating beyond the mandate of the people.

What? Rubbish.

Both of those are up to them. The Victorians tried this argument at the start of the 20th century. Didn't work then either.

I wasn't aware Hamas was attacking the US. They often trot out a lot of rhetoric, but up until now have kept their terror within Israel. I would argue that for most Palestinians, the role of the US is actually simpler than ideoligical, The US has essentially given Israel a permenent seat on the UN security council.

I try not to underestimate anyone, but i also know that nothing in this life is black and white. The devil, as they say, in the detail.