Any evangelical christians on this message board?

[Anon]

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

But Bluesman, You are grouping ALL Palis into the Terrorist group. Condemning the entire population for the acts of the minority.

They all support the terrorists or at best do nothing to stop the terrorists. Almost all of them want the jews destroyed.

Condemn 'em all, let allah sort em out. I mean, what, are you Rodney King, "Why cant we all just get along?"

Nit wit...the Pals don't want to get along.

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

That would be like condemning the people of the US because of the acts of idiots that, Drag people behind their truck because of their skin color, tie people to a fence and beat them to death because of their sex preference, Shoot a kid because hes in the "Wrong Hood" or wearing the wrong color sneakers or hat, spike trees so that loggers will get injured or killed and quit logging in the area, kill doctors because they perform abortions. And the list goes on.

It would be like killing Germans because Nazis ran the country. Oh...

It would be like killing Japanese cause they were run by a military dictatorship. Oh...

It would be like killing Italians because their leader was a facist dictator. Oh...

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

All the above doesnt make us an immoral country or immoral people. Neither does the acts of a minority in Palestine make the whole group immoral.

The palestinian people could put an end to the suicide and rocket attacks any time they wanted. They SUPPORT Hamas. They SUPPORT the PLO. They WANT THE JEWS WIPED OFF THE MAP.

They are all guilty.

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

And we didn't help in the matter. We told the Palestineans that if they would have elections they would be treated like a legit government. But when the people that we didn't like won, we reniged. What a great way for Hamas to say "See they really don't mean what they say. Can't trust the US."

They elected the PLO- a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION- and never stopped their attacks on Israel. They have yet to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

Did you fall and hit your head or something? Because you sound like a retard.(*and now i remember why you were the first and only poster of this forum to get added to my ignore list. To be honest, im not really sure how you got off. Oh well....back on you go).

[Anon]

Originally Posted by Confed999

Their vote shows they are the majority...

Yep. And that's all the justification we need to lump them all together.

They elected a terrorist group to power, ergo, it is a terrorist state, ergo, we should be attacking them until their eyes bleed and they beg for mercy.

But we got out of that business in 1945. Now we only fight pretty wars- whether it's a good idea or not.

[mich]

Originally Posted by Bluesman

And if you need reminding that your obviously respectable culture has an equal claim to morality as the civilized nations which drug your disgusting practices out of a dark age and into its rightful place among the modern world, then you have NO IDEA about your country's history, or you are as deep in denial about it as you are about the Israeli Palestinain differences of moral rectitude.

first of all keep your small red,white, and blue penis in your pants when you are attempting to make intelligent arguements. which 'civilized nations' are you talking about?. the 'dark ages' ,as every other history book will tell you,was something europe experienced from approximately 400AD to 1100AD. europe at this time was just like some of the third world countries of today. with people who were illiterate and having a low standard of living. At the same time empires like the muslim caliphate, India, China had a high standard of living for its people. the muslims of that time preserved the writings of plato and aristotle into their own languages. At the same time, some of these muslims engaged in commerce with India and learned how to use the numerical system we all use today. at the same time the jews who were living in the muslim caliphate of that time took the arabic tranlations of plato and aristotle and translated that into hebrew. when the jews started moving into europe, they brought with them what they learned from the muslims and helped bring europe "out of a dark age"

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by mich

first of all keep your small red,white, and blue penis in your pants when you are attempting to make intelligent arguements. which 'civilized nations' are you talking about?. the 'dark ages' ,as every other history book will tell you,was something europe experienced from approximately 400AD to 1100AD. europe at this time was just like some of the third world countries of today. with people who were illiterate and having a low standard of living. At the same time empires like the muslim caliphate, India, China had a high standard of living for its people. the muslims of that time preserved the writings of plato and aristotle into their own languages. At the same time, some of these muslims engaged in commerce with India and learned how to use the numerical system we all use today. at the same time the jews who were living in the muslim caliphate of that time took the arabic tranlations of plato and aristotle and translated that into hebrew. when the jews started moving into europe, they brought with them what they learned from the muslims and helped bring europe "out of a dark age"

And I acknowledge all of that, you ignorant choad. I never claimed Europe was the end-all/be-all of Creation. Far from it; they have been and could be still as savage as any of your crew.

But in modern times, it has been the seat of advanced thinking, civilizational development and societal progress, while your backward and benighted people burn brides with small dowries and comport themselves like monkeys one generation away from living in the tops of trees.

Now, if you'd bothered to read what I wrote, I fully acknowledge that modern India is as fine an example of progress as exists in the world today. My only point was that it was propelled to where it is now by the civilizing influences of a civilization that was superior to the state India was found in. This is undeniable, and if you think I am being nationalistic, hotrod, you need to look in the mirror if you can't bring yourself to admit that.

Clown.

[smilingassassin]

Originally Posted by mich

first of all keep your small red,white, and blue penis in your pants when you are attempting to make intelligent arguements.

Now theres an intelligent statement.....

[bandwagon]

Originally Posted by Bluesman

But in modern times, it has been the seat of advanced thinking, civilizational development and societal progress

Do you agree then, that the progress the civilised behavior in our society is because of a belief in an absolute moral standard applied to all cultures. We reject the notion of relative morals, we reject that torture and killing is OK in some societies because “it’s their culture”.

Instead we hold an ideal, even if we cannot achieve this, of a peaceful co-existence, where war does not occur. This implies that the standard of absolute morals is no killing. And this fits with “Thy shalt not kill” (no qualifications), "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". This in turn implies that when we do kill to defend ourselves, it is as a compromise between keeping to the moral standard and security.

We accept that this compromise is necessary for security. But the further we stray from just killing the potential murderer only, out of immediate self defence only, the greater the moral transgression, and the greater the compromise, -of which we remain aware at all times.

To think otherwise is not civilised.

The act of killing an innocent is always equally immoral. The judgement is on how the moral compromise is justified.

[Bluesman]

And you have the gall to say that Confed is confused, after you post something like that intellectual dog's breakfast up?

I give up on you. Logic has no place in your world, and there is simply no point in trying to find whatever it is that you would have us believe that YOU believe. I'm simply not interested in one such as you anymore.

'Ignore'.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by bandwagon

The act of killing an innocent is always equally immoral. The judgement is on how the moral compromise is justified.

I've always had a problem with that as well, and attempted to discuss it here a few times.

Boy....did I step on some toes!. ..Good luck with it.

I just finally passed it off that I would have to engage in warfare to completely understand the other side of it.....so I no longer discuss it because I feel incapable of the full comprehension of the subject.

[Ray]

Bandwagon,

You are a real interesting bloke.

I marvel at your analysis and logic!

It is like a stun bomb that turns out to be damp!

[mich]

[quote=Bluesman]
But in modern times, it has been the seat of advanced thinking, civilizational development and societal progress,..
yes, europe and the entire western world are in that position now thanks in part to the efforts of the ancient muslim world(they had a hand in bringing europe out of the 'dark ages'). you should give proper credit where credit is due.
while your backward and benighted people burn brides with small dowries .
you are right, this is an embarrasing truth about Indias society. this does not mean that the collective nation of India has an inferior moral code compared to a country like the United States. dowry an bride burnings occur because of a few rotten elements in Indias society. on the other hand, things aren't perfect here in the United States either. talking about the 200 year hisory of USA, Lets see: there was the slave trade, American governments policy towards the red Indians during the 19th century,'manifest destiny'...etc..etc.at the current time, problems in America are things like the failing public educational system, drug problems, and on top of it all, serious racial problems.

[bandwagon]

Originally Posted by Bluesman

I give up on you. Logic has no place in your world, and there is simply no point in trying to find whatever it is that you would have us believe that YOU believe. I'm simply not interested in one such as you anymore.

The fact that you don’t understand that means that you lack the ability to judge when war is or isn’t justified. Yes war is justified at times, but people like you would take us back to the dark ages, just when we have made some good progress in civilisation in the past 50 years.

[Bluesman]

Have no idea what you just posted,and I don't give a dam', either. It would be just as confused and amoral as everything else you've slung up against the wall.

[Bluesman]

[quote=mich]

Originally Posted by Bluesman

But in modern times, it has been the seat of advanced thinking, civilizational development and societal progress,..
yes, europe and the entire western world are in that position now thanks in part to the efforts of the ancient muslim world(they had a hand in bringing europe out of the 'dark ages'). you should give proper credit where credit is due.
while your backward and benighted people burn brides with small dowries .
you are right, this is an embarrasing truth about Indias society. this does not mean that the collective nation of India has an inferior moral code compared to a country like the United States. dowry an bride burnings occur because of a few rotten elements in Indias society. on the other hand, things aren't perfect here in the United States either. talking about the 200 year hisory of USA, Lets see: there was the slave trade, American governments policy towards the red Indians during the 19th century,'manifest destiny'...etc..etc.at the current time, problems in America are things like the failing public educational system, drug problems, and on top of it all, serious racial problems.

You're utterly missing the point, and it's your obstinate, stubborn chauvanism that is the problem. Which was, I believe, what you accused me of. Well, I'm right and you're blind, but if there is just one chance of you seeing the point, I'll take one last crack at it.

Here is what I was trying to say:

[EricTheRed]

I am not evangelical, I used to be southern baptist. I do not support Isreal or the Muslims. I do think Isreal is the lesser of two evils.

The U.S. government is usuing rapture theology as foreign policy. Thats dangerous.

[Bluesman]

When the British found India, it was a backward and benighted place that nevertheless had a glorious history. But barbarism ruled. The British were MUCH farther along the road to civilization.

This does not ignore 1) the Brits exploited without mercy the entire subcontinent, and did things which enriched themselves and beggared the people that the wealth rightfully belonged to, and 2) the Indians have a history that was as glorious as anything the Europeans could show, and your point that India was able to show advances that Dark Ages Europe would envy. NEITHER of those things have anything to do with my point, though, and neither does anything in your previous post.

Societal problems are NOT what we're talking about, nor are we talking about modern times. Whatever the frequency bride burning occurs NOW does NOT have any bearing on whether it is a grand old Indian tradition with a historical pedigree.

I don't remember who said it, but that British governor (or a general, or a governor-general) said about certain Indian practices that if that's your tradition, all well and good. But it is in the British tradition to hang the chaps that engaged in that sort of beastliness.

And slowly, British tradition won over, and India became yet more civilized. You should dam' well be glad of THAT, too, if not exactly grateful for being swindled at the same time.

But the underpinnings of modern Indian society, whether anybody on this board will admit it or not, is a birthright bestowed by the British Crown, and I am of the unshakable opinion that it is the single greatest reason that India enjoys the success and place in this world that she does, and her potential is absolutely limitless for the same reason.

But if the British had never ruled India? Another conglomeration of petty thugocracies and vile swamps of corruption and mad misrule. It would be Africa all over again.

THAT was what I was trying to say, and you could not perceive it, because you had to get your back up at a perceived insult. Well, friend, you'll never know this unless I tell you, but I am one of India's greatest admirers and loudest supporters. But it is simply not arguable that they were civilized by Europeans.

NOW then, to deal with MY country:
American history is a story of a HALF civilized people becoming moreso over time. From the time of our frontier days and the antebellum South, we had the outward marks of civilization (certainly higher on the scale than pre-colonial India), but as you correctly pointed out, we kept human beings in bondage, tried to commit genocide multiple times, and behaved with a general savagery towards each other that certainly did us no credit. But we grew outward and upward at the same time, and I believe we became what Lincoln saw so clearly, even though it was but a vision and not manifest when he said it: the last best hope of Mankind.

I was not insulting your country. I was not magnifying my own at your expense. I was pointing out that civilization springs from a morality that CAN be judged superior on a scale that each of us must acknowledge, and NO, it does NOT depend on where you were born, nor under what circumstances you suffer or thrive.

Certain things are Right and other things are Wrong, and civilization is what teaches you which things to value and to love.

That's all I was trying to say.