Any evangelical christians on this message board?

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by mich

I think you are saying that one side is right and the other side is wrong in this palestine/israel conflict. maybe i misunderstood your statement.

No, you got it just fine. That's eaxctly what I'm saying.

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by tphuang

I'm evangelical, but I don't support Israel at all.

Not sure how you square THAT, but when we're dealing with something as irrational faith and a belief system that requires no proof and admits no testing of itself, I guess one can come up with all kinds of strange combinations of incompatible positions.

To each his own.

[Confed999]

Originally Posted by tphuang

When I go visit China, I find a lot of what people in china do to be distastful and try to tell them about it. But then they tell me what right I have to tell them those things.

You have the right to tell them whatever you want, good or bad, right or wrong, and they have the right not to listen. At least in a "free" society you do. Their listening, or not, doesn't change what I said about moral standards though.

[Confed999]

Originally Posted by tphuang

well, who do you blame in those circumstances?

The voters, and the people who made no move internally to stop the atrocities.

[Ray]

We have a fairly evangelical fellow at work. We scare him off when we put the words sex and woman in the same sentance.....

And the reaction when you put the words sex and men in the same sentence?

Everything in excess is an indication of a rotter.

[Ray]

God gave the land to the Jewish people and that Christians have a Biblical duty to support it and the Jews.

This is what quite a few evangelicals opine.

One has many reasons for being pro Israel, but this one is real obscurantist and as justifiable as the obscurantist stuff the Islamist spew out in justification.

What is the difference then between the Islamist and these blokes? Maybe they have not yet become terrorist horrors!

Come on, we are in the 21st Century!

Wake up!

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by Ray

The point that electing Hamas is something that is not right is in itself not a right statement.

I think it's a VERY correct statement. I think it was an error in CHOICE, but not an indictment of 'Democracy'. Americans have made their fair share of bad choices, but overall, I'd say Democracy has served us very well, CERTAINLY better than anything else we could've patterned our governance on.

Originally Posted by Ray

Much that one may dislike Hamas (and there are good reasons to do so), the fact that democracy has been applied and Hamas has won hands down cannot be wished away.

Absolutely right. But the OTHER side of self-government is taking responsibility for the majority's choice. And as long as the Pallies make these kinds of stupid choices, they'll suffer for it. From this will come maturity, and 'growing up. At present, they behave like children throwing a tantrum. Well, that's what they've chosen; let's see how they like it.

Originally Posted by Ray

On one hand, we want Arab nations to be democratic and on the other hand, when they are democratic and choose a government not to our liking, we find that distasteful.

Your analysis is faulty on one point: it's not merely that we DISLIKE their choice, it's that their choice does not serve their long-term interests. Nout OUR interests; those choices are made by mature democracies eveery single year, and if it may not be what WE would have wished, at least it is the best for their country. All well and good. But HAMAS!?!? A bad choice for EVERYbody, except the terrorists.

Originally Posted by Ray

That does not wash.

Sure it does. If the Pallies had elected a true democratic party, one interested in getting on with building their own state, they'd be miles ahead, and there would simply be no end of help - expertise, monetary, and moral help - available to them. And you can bet that our notional winning party would NOT be pro-Western; they'd be all about what's best for The People, and good for them if they are.

That's really all we ask to be a good neighbor. 'Clean up your yard, and stop trying to set fire to my house.'

Originally Posted by Ray

There is no doubt that the Islamists are perpetually precipating crisis after crisis, Hizbollah and Lebanon being one, but the silver lining is that democracy is slowly coming to Arabia. This mindless stupidity that the Islamists are engaged in will one day die its natural death.

THERE ya go; dead on. Democracy isn't a destination, it's a process. We had growing pains; Republican France had growing pains. Every single democracy on the planet had fits and starts. Once the Arab and Islamic Worlds taste success (it is tantalizingly close, but there is simply no 'wins' for democracy in that benighted part of the world yet, which is one great explanation of their multiple pathologies), I suspect it will take hold.

And we better hope Dubya and I am right about that, because there is simply no other game in town. There's not another strategy to get us out of this conflict except the Sniper Doctrine of 'Bombs Away', and 'Fire for Effect'. It may yet come to that, but for now, I'm fully invested in Democratization under the Bush Doctrine.

Originally Posted by Ray

Of course, between that day and today, many innocents will die!

No doubt, because, as you correctly suppose, we are facing an implacable, aggressive, fighting faith that does not know compromise. We can't take the sword out of its hand, but we may be able to convince it to put the sword in its scabbard and behave like the rest of the XXIst Century civilized nations.

Originally Posted by Ray

I also saw that documentary where the Born Agains are supporting Israel but the reasons are illogical and unscientific, apart from being downright stupid.

Disagree. I am COMPLETELY and foursquar behind Israel, and it seems to me to be the ONLY stance to take in this conflict. It's as plain as day who is right and who is wrong in this conflict, and what the consequences are to the world if we fail to do the Right Thing.

[Ray]

Bluesman

GTG.

Will come back and reply.

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by tphuang

wow, you again. Why am I not surprised? Too eager to jump on me, huh?

What am I saying? If you call yourself the good guy and the other side the bad guy, you have to show better behaviour. There is a reason Hamas is a terrorist group. If you are acting like Hamas, you'd be a terrorist group too.

Totally agree with Ray. If you want democracy, you would have to agree with the results of democracy. If you only want democratic results to go the way you want it to go, how is that real democracy?

Oh, it's REAL, no doubt. But I categorically reject that any government can be composed of fascists AND be legitiamte, freely elected or not.

HAMAS is not legitimate, I don't care how many votes they got.

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by sappersgt

Didnt Hitler win his election to Chancellor?

Why, YES, he sure did, and he made no secret about what he was all about. Which is exactly why the German People could be held accountable for their choice.

Pallies, take note.

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by Confed999

Strange, I don't remember either of those places voting in a government with a policy of terrorism.

What a GREAT put-away shot on what was really a VERY poor serve.

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by tphuang

there were reasons that the German people voted him in at that time and there were reasons that Hamas got voted in this time. Governments like that and people like that only get voted in when the country situation is really really bad.

Explains how the US got OUR dictator during the Depression.

Hey, WAIT a second...THAT never happened.

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by mich

this is what I am understanding from your statement: Israel and the western world have moral standards because they follow judeo/christian values. but on the other side of the coin,for most palestinians(excluding the fanatic suicide bombers), their Islamic faith is what gives them their moral standard(some palestinians are also christians). yes, I will say that Israelis and palestinians have equal moral standards. to suggest that one nations(peoples) moral standards are lower(or higher) than some other nations of this planet is outright arrogance. If someone suggested to me that India(a nation with a civilization that goes back to more than 5,000 years of human history, and the country my family came from) have moral standards that are not on the same level as some other nations, i would argue with that individual until I prove them wrong.

You are a moral IDIOT, sir. NO, morals are NOT equivalent, just because this or that morality is embraced by a certain ethnic group, or a majority, or whatever. There are certain planes of morality, certain modes of behavior that are WRONG, if you can even understand the concept of Right and Wrong.

And NO, the Palestinians are NOT the equal to the Israelis, you cretin. The gulf between the two is about as wide as you can bloody well get between monks and canniblas. This is not arrogance, and your attempt to make it so is the plainest proof that you have no concept of what it is you're even talking about.

And if you need reminding that your obviously respectable culture has an equal claim to morality as the civilized nations which drug your disgusting practices out of a dark age and into its rightful place among the modern world, then you have NO IDEA about your country's history, or you are as deep in denial about it as you are about the Israeli Palestinain differences of moral rectitude.

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by Ray

To understand why Germany went they way it did, it is interesting to read EH Carr's "International Relations Between the Two World Wars 1919 -1939".

There are some good reasons for the same.

The book is in four parts i.e. the period of the Versailles Treaty and its enforcement, ending in the fiasco of Reparations and the Ruhr Invasion; the period of pacification and optimism following the Locarno Treaty, during which the League of Nations attaing the summit of its prestige; the period of crisis beginning with the economic breakdown and culminating in the Japanese adventure in Manchuria and the failure of the Disarmament Conference; the period of the Versailles Treaty and the Covenant, leading up to the renewal of war.

The issue is not quite so black and white an affair.

No, the DETAILS of this tangent ARE complicated, and bear not one little bit about the quite narrow point under which it was mentioned in the first place.

All these very fine and correct points DO NOT BEAR on what was being said.

And as for it not being clear and in 'black and white', well, the results for the People that made their choice certainly was stark, was it not? THAT was the point.

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by Confed999

Really? So honor killings are a good thing? Women should have little or, better yet, no rights? If a person listens to music, or watches TV, they should be killed? People should be attacked for the name they call God? People should be executed for who they say I love you to? People should be oppressed and enslaved for the profit of others? There are places where some/all of those things are morally correct, and it is in no way arrogant to say places/peoples who's moral code says those things are wrong have a higher moral standard.

THANK you.