troung

Well you have to get in some sort of jab before the cease fire goes into effect...

--------------
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...290211,00.html

Halutz: It took time to build ground move

In Channel 10 interview, army chief deals with question why it took IDF so long to enter ground operation; 'if alternative was to attack Lebanon from the ground, we would have found ourselves being disgracefully expelled,' he says. Northern command chief, however, says plans were ready for several days, waiting for approval
Miri Chason

Why did it take the Israel Defense Forces so long to head toward Litani River with large forces? IDF Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Dan Halutz said Saturday evening in a Channel 10 interview that "if the alternative was to attack Lebanon from the ground, we would have found ourselves being disgracefully expelled with disgrace. A ground move also has to be built.

Northern Command Chief Major-General Udi Adam said during a press briefing that "the plans were ready for several days now, and in general before the recent events. The moment we received the approval, we were on our way."

Halutz said commissions of inquiry do not scare him, "I was not born an army chief and will not die an army chief."

However, he said that "there are a lot of things which have to be looked into. How did we reach such a reality in six years. How did the defense budget reach a situation in which it cannot meet the defense means necessary for the State of Israel, this is exactly the source of failure to improve."

The army chief spoke after dozens of helicopters brought large forces into southern Lebanon as part of the expansion of the military operation, which was the largest landing operation since the Yom Kippur War.

A large number of aircraft participated in the mission, including Yanshuf and Yasur helicopters flown by reserve and standing army pilots. Simultaneous to landing the forces, supplies for soldiers were also airdropped from the helicopters.

Halutz answered a question regarding the delay in the ground entry: "We were in Lebanon on the ground, for all those who have forgotten, in a very large operation, and we stayed there for 18 years. Therefore this statement if why we did not enter on the force earlier is a question which before it is answered, all its aspects should be examined and this is not the main thing. At what price? That is also a question which should be asked."

Halutz noted that the IDF knew from the start that it has no answer for the short-range rockets.

Regarding the incidents in which IDF soldiers were killed, Halutz said: "I think that to consider the events in Maroun a-Ras and Bint Jbeil as decisive and environment-shaping is not correct."

"There were many comparable incidents in other Israeli wars, I don't remember them influencing the Israeli consciousness in the way they are trying to make out of these incidents. The sense that we are carrying out a quick blitz here is mistaken. I am the last to say we are an organization innocent of errors. We do make mistakes," he added.

According to the chief of staff, the army has made significant achievements in south Lebanon.

"The first is the position and state of Hizbullah. The second – the demolition of long-range rockets and launchers. The third – hitting Hizbullah itself. More than 500 Hizbullah operatives were killed, we hit weapons arsenals and Hizbullah territory," he said.

"The targets we did not yet achieve are the short-range Katyushas. To reach each and every one of them, you need to put your hand on them. This process is extremely demanding, and we need to reach a state in which the other side has no motivation to fire them," Halutz added.

When asked at which point he decided something was not right in the Northern Command, Halutz answered: "Everything is fine with the Northern Command. We work as a team. I have already said what I have to say in the matter of Udi Adam. I have thus far no complaints against him."

Northern Command chief: IDF waited 10 days for green light

Northern Command Chief Udi Adam put the ball in the political court again Saturday, saying the army was ready to enter south Lebanon in greater force for over a week and was only awaiting a go-ahead from the government.

Replying to charges that the expanded military operation in south Lebanon launched Saturday could have started weeks ago, Adam said, "the Northern Command had and has a number of plans against the Hizbullah organization. The plans were prepared a while ago, before the most recent events. The moment we got authorization, we set out."

According to Adam, "Most of this has been planned for ten days. The moment the political ranks passed their decision to the army, we launched the offensive. Unequivocally – the Northern Command was ready the moment it was told to be ready for the offensive."

Adam was speaking during a press briefing on the army's achievements in Lebanon .

"On Monday I hope the achievements will be such that we will reach a large number of the rocket launch sites, and we'll take command of part of the territory as we planned – if not over most of the territory, and we'll be in a better situation than we are in now. Assuming the ceasefire will take effect, we will stop when we are told, and if it does not go into effect – we can also continue," he said.

"This means that whether there is a ceasefire or not does not need to interest the fighting soldier. What should interest him is only that he has a mission and must perform it," Adam added.

The Northern Command head noted that "just today (Saturday) forces managed to killed more than 40 terrorists. We are finding weapons stores, rockets. Today a Golani Brigade force found hundreds of rockets in one house. We found surveillance and listening equipment. Every day there are such surprises. We will continue to clean out all these strongholds."

During the briefing Adam was asked whether the risk to soldiers was worth the effort, seeing as the territories conquered will be very quickly returned to Lebanese hands. In response, Adam said: "The risk is worthwhile. A ceasefire may not take effect and the (rocket) fire could continue, and then what? The attempt to stop the firing and reach more Hizbullah cells seems to me appropriate and necessary."

__________________
To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

MIKEMUN

__________________
"They want to test our feelings.They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and their newspapers."

Protester

troung

Largely Empty, Stronghold of Militia Is Still Perilous
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/14/wo...=5070&emc=eta1

By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.
Published: August 14, 2006
BINT JBAIL, Lebanon, Aug. 12 — Not long ago, this town was known as “the capital of the resistance,” the most important Hezbollah stronghold in the southern reaches of Lebanon.

Now Bint Jbail appears largely deserted. Most of the homes are damaged, some pockmarked by bullets or shrapnel and others reduced to piles of stone and concrete by Israeli artillery that continues to pound the village.

But while Israeli troops have pushed farther north, Bint Jbail remains a very dangerous place for Israeli soldiers and a fitting illustration for why the war has become so frustrating for troops who had come to expect a swift and deep push into Lebanon.

Late on Wednesday night, Israeli soldiers from the elite Golani Brigade hiked five miles through darkness over tall hills carrying full packs, rifles and heavy jugs of water, arriving here a few hours before dawn. Accompanied by a reporter, they holed up in the second story of an unfinished house.

Hezbollah attacked a few hours later, at 8 a.m., firing a powerful missile into a Merkava tank in front of the house, wounding two crewmen.

Two hours later, a second antitank missile slammed into the top of the three-story house with a thunderous crack, shattering some of the few remaining windowpanes and shaking the home violently.

No soldiers had been on the top floor, and no one was hurt. But after two close calls, commanders herded a dozen enlisted men into the room thought to offer the most protection from missiles, an unfinished bathroom on the first floor. A few other members of the 20-man unit lay down outside the room, in an area between thick concrete walls.

The unit that had taken shelter in this house, part of the Golani Brigade’s 51st Battalion, spent the next 36 hours sitting cramped-legged on bathroom tiles, dozing while leaning on one another, their rifles and their buddies’ legs on top of them. Hezbollah missiles continued to occasionally explode nearby.

It was not the battalion’s first mission here. On July 26, eight battalion soldiers were killed in close-quarters fighting with Hezbollah militiamen, including a deputy commander who threw himself on a live grenade to save the men around him.

Instead of that sort of fighting, the Israeli troops in Bint Jbail now dread the Hezbollah missiles that have forced the Israelis to alter much of its battle plan, as troops in Lebanon tailor their moves in fear of the militia’s modern and accurate weapons. After first pushing into Lebanon in heavy armor, the Israeli forces are doing much more on foot and also walking at night to avoid giving the Hezbollah missile units an easy target, commanders here said. Even in areas well behind the front lines, the soldiers’ days are spent hiding away from windows in reinforced, interior rooms to avoid the danger demonstrated by Thursday morning’s near misses.

This battle resembles Russia’s fight against Chechen rebels, said Vladi, one of the Israeli soldiers who took shelter in the house here. An émigré who fought in the Russian Army, Vladi, who declined to give his last name, said Israel now faced a more robust foe than the Chechens. “Hezbollah is tougher,” he said.

On the ridge where the 51st Battalion hunkered down, many homes were of sturdy, expensive construction. The partly built home where the 20-member unit of the Golani Battalion had taken shelter appeared to be intended for a wealthy family, with thick concrete walls and ceilings, elaborate crown moldings, and stylish tiling. Now it was strewn with shards of glass, heaps of dust, wood splinters and trash. After Thursday’s missile strikes, Col. Omri Bar-David peered through pieces of glass still hanging in a window frame and pointed to a ridge about two miles away being bombed by Israeli jets. That, he said, is where the missiles were launched.

Both missiles that struck Thursday were Russian-made Kornets, with a range up to about three miles, said Colonel Bar-David, a reserve commander of another battalion, and a corporate lawyer in civilian life, who had made the trip with the Golani soldiers.

“At first we sent the armor in, but the Hezbollah had missiles,” he said. “So we decided to use the old method on two legs.” Hezbollah fighters, he added, are skilled and resilient. “From the point of view of the individual soldier, they are better than the Arab armies that surround us,” he said, referring to other Middle Eastern nations.

The missile attacks on Thursday morning were dangerous, but nothing like earlier battles in Bint Jbail and nearby villages. In one attack, Hezbollah militiamen struck a house of Israeli soldiers with three missiles, killing two men and wounding 30 — everybody in the house, said Joel Abel, a sergeant and medic for a unit of paratroopers that had been engaged in fierce fighting in Bint Jbail, Aita al Shaab and Marun al Ras. Interviewed in northern Israel as he waited for his unit to return to Lebanon, Sergeant Abel described how missile attacks and cramped quarters had taken their toll on some younger soldiers in his unit who had been holed up in houses attacked by Hezbollah.

“They were quite hysterical,” he said. “They sat on the side and didn’t know what to do. It was the first time they’d ever seen that kind of fighting,” he said, fighting “you don’t see from the Palestinians.”

At one point, Sergeant Abel said, a soldier preparing to fire at a Hezbollah position dived into a small room with five other soldiers to avoid another incoming missile. He said the Israeli soldier accidentally fired his weapon, severing the leg of another soldier who screamed, “My leg is boiling. Save me!”

During a moment of relative quiet at the house in Bint Jbail, a few younger troops listened as the most experienced soldier in the house, Col. Shlomo Parente, 48, who first fought in Lebanon during Israel’s occupation more than two decades ago, tried to put this war into some perspective.

“In the first war we got to the Litani after four or five days,” he said, referring to the river. “This is different. Hezbollah doesn’t run, they know how to fight, and they are fanatics.”

In an interview later, Colonel Parente also blamed Israeli leaders, saying their indecisiveness was responsible for the lack of progress. “This time it’s like fighting through chewing gum, or glue,” he said.

Nor does he have faith in the Lebanese Army, which under the United Nations cease-fire plan would patrol southern Lebanon with an international peacekeeping force. While the cease-fire is supposed to go into effect on Monday morning, it was not clear how soon the actual fighting would stop. “They are no good,” he said of the Lebanese soldiers. “They are afraid of Hezbollah.”

The Golani soldiers got along well despite the cramped quarters. They slept with their heads on one another’s shoulders as they occasionally fidgeted to get more comfortable, or emerged from the bathroom to take a turn standing guard.

“It’s been ugly,” said Dudi Levisohn, an enlisted man, as he stood guard. “But it’s our job.”

Speaking matter-of-factly, without sarcasm, he added, “We suffer so the people in Tel Aviv can enjoy themselves.”

troung

IDF commander: Olmert ordered us to stop

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...292234,00.html

Ynet correspondent joins paratroopers for 48 hours on Lebanese soil, provides an account of operation that was stopped after Hizbullah hit chopper; did hesitation and panic led to loss of momentum? Could it be done differently?
Ron Ben-Yishai

Last Saturday at dusk, the huge transport helicopters began landing at a field somewhere in northern Israel. The dozens of Blackhawk choppers were organized in one row, their engines working, clouds of dust rising from the ground and painted red by the setting sun's rays.

The nearby area where troops were gathered looked like a central bus station. Hundreds of regular and reserve paratroopers applied black, brown, and green camouflage face paint on each other, while sharing macabre jokes and exchanging friendly slaps. Then they were divided into groups and checked their equipment.

Load supervisors walked around, made records and checked dog tags – the atmosphere was almost celebratory.

"This time, we'll show them," I was told by Benny, a reserve officer I've known from the first Lebanon War. Others, mostly reservists, thought we missed the train. We should have done this at the outset of the fighting.

"Now it's too little, too late," one fighter told me.

Largest airborne operation in IDF history

This was supposed to be the largest airborne operation in IDF history. A force comprising regular and reserve paratroopers was slated to land and deploy deep in southern Lebanon's central sector. The mission: Considerable minimization of short-range rocket fire. Thousands of those Katyusha rockets were fired from villages east of Tyre.

We took off an hour and a half behind schedule. "We're terribly late," I'm told by Omer, a young paratroop career officer who left his university studies and asked to join his friends. "The moon will be rising in four minutes and it will expose us." He's worried.

About 40 fighters are sitting on the helicopter's benches and floor, along with missiles and huge quantities of weapons and ammunition. It's not a good idea to even think about what will happen if the chopper is hit. People sweat as a result of the heat, excitement, and fear. Below us we see the bright lights of northern communities. We cross the border and continue to float above dark Lebanese territory.

A full, round and large moon appears at the window and lights up the faces of those inside the chopper. The first group of helicopters landed successfully. Now is our turn. We're glued to each other as we run out. Momentarily I spot two other choppers that already unloaded the fighters taking off above us.

The sound of an explosion and a loud noise cause me to look up. I see the pink flame of the missile's engine chasing the helicopter that took off. The chopper is hit about 300 hundred meters (roughly 1,000 feet) away from us but continues to falter, engulfed in flame, for another 500 meters or so, before leaning on its side and collapsing on the ground.

The forces freeze. It's obvious Hizbullah identified the landing zone and prepared an ambush. The commander, Hagai Mordechai, decided there's no point in sending a force to the crash zone in order to look for survivors or bodies. There's also no point in attacking the site where the missile was fired from. The entire area is surrounded by forces from a reserve division and any movement can lead to friendly fire incidents.

Precious 24 hours lost

Time is running out. We still have ahead of us a long journey in a mountainous, steep terrain before we reach our destination. We must get there and hide before daylight, so we don't become sitting ducks. The Air Force commander calls Hagai using the encrypted phone and asks for first-hand details regarding the hit chopper. His voice is quiet and stable, but he sounds worried. Several minutes later Hagai is ordered by headquarters to stop. The chopper landings will be halted for fear of more missiles, and the forces that already landed won't be moving forward to their targets. Instead, they're ordered to hide at dominating positions near the landing zone and wait for the next night.

It's hard to see Hagai's facial expression, but every fighter knows that casualties are no reason to stop the operation, particularly since such incident was to be expected. Hagai tries to explain that he accumulated enough force, more than 200 fighters, which allows him to carry out the mission. The reserve division also has significant forces in the area, but the officers at headquarters insist: Don't move. The sudden change in the mission, which is militarily unjustified, turns us into an immobile target. The decision to stop the landings can be understood, but someone has to investigate why all of a sudden the operation was frozen and the forces lost precious 24 hours.

The next morning, we suddenly hear a loud noise through the ongoing artillery fire, followed by a distant explosion. A reserve anti-tank force destroyed a rocket launcher. Soon after, an armored Hizbullah vehicle is destroyed in another village.

Hagai talks to headquarters quietly and tries to convince them to allow us to move to the original destination tonight. The permission is given. Hagai issues orders ahead of the night. The day passes by slowly.

Stench of Hizbullah bodies

We prepare to move as night falls, meet other forces that were hiding in the area like us, while being careful not to be subjected to friendly fire. Such huge mass of forces in a relatively small area is an invitation for disaster. We still have enough water and tuna for another 24 hours, but the water is running out quickly. Yet it looks like we're back in business, the forces under Hagai's command start their journey to the target, and then, suddenly, we stop.

"What happened? I ask him. I see Hagai's face hardening under the moonlight. "The mission has been cancelled," he said. "Headquarters informed me that the prime minister himself issued an order forbidding us from moving forward because the ceasefire will go into effect in a few hours."

The journey back to Israel is difficult and slow. We pass near a few villages. Some of them have been ruined to a larger degree than others. Here and there we see candlelight at windows. A powerful stench of bodies comes from bunkers and buildings where Hizbullah men were hiding, before apparently being hurt by our airpower and artillery fire.

At dawn, we cross back into Israel, symbolically enough, exactly at the same spot where the two reserve troops were abducted by Hizbullah members a month and three days ago.

The Prime Minister's Spokesman's response: "According to the government decision Sunday, Israel accepted the ceasefire called for Monday at 8 in the morning. At no stage before that has the prime minister directed the military echelon to hold its fire. If the operation was indeed halted, it was done due to military considerations rather than government considerations."

-----

troung

Israeli forces operate deep inside Lebanon

Raid marks broadest violation of 5-day-old cease-fire with Hezbollah

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah fighters battled Israeli commandos who landed near the militants’ stronghold deep inside Lebanon early Saturday, killing one soldier, in the first large-scale violation of the U.N.-brokered cease-fire between the sides.

Hezbollah said its guerrillas foiled the raid after a gunbattle, and the Israeli army said one soldier was killed and two were wounded but that the commando team completed its mission.

Three Hezbollah guerillas were also killed, Lebanese security sources said.

Witnesses said Israeli missiles destroyed a bridge during the raid — the first major violation of the U.N.-imposed cease-fire that took effect Monday following 34 days of fighting.

The Israeli army said the special forces operation aimed “to prevent and interfere with terror activity against Israel, especially the smuggling of arms from Iran and Syria to Hezbollah.”

The army said that such operations would be carried out until “an effective monitoring unit” of Lebanese or multinational troops was in place to prevent Hezbollah from rebuilding its arsenal.

Hezbollah TV and Lebanese security officials said Israeli helicopters dropped off a commando team outside the village of Boudai west of Baalbek in eastern Lebanon.

The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to release information to the media, said the Israelis apparently were seeking a guerrilla target in a nearby school but had no other details.
The officials also reported heavy overflights of Israeli jets.

Such a bold operation risked the cease-fire, and suggested Israel was going after a major target near Baalbek -- perhaps to rescue two Israeli soldiers snatched by Hezbollah on July 12, or to try to capture a senior guerrilla official to trade for the soldiers.

troung

Israeli raid in Lebanon 'breaks' ceasefire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The ceasefire in Lebanon was holding by a thread on Saturday night after Israel sanctioned a commando raid in the east of the country. Kofi Annan, the United Nations Secretary General, said Israel had violated the truce, and he was "deeply concerned" about it.

But the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, claimed that the attack was intended to prevent the supply of new weapons and ammunition to Hezbollah.

Meanwhile, renewed arguments developed about the composition of the UN peacekeeping force in the south of the country. As the first international troops charged with boosting the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) -- 50 French soldiers -- landed on Saturday near Naqoura, almost 5km from the Israeli border, the Lebanese defence minister threatened to halt the deployment of Lebanese national troops into areas previously controlled by Hezbollah.

France, one of the architects of the ceasefire that ended the 33-day conflict between Israel and Hezbollah last week, has disappointed expectations that it would provide the backbone of the 15 000 international reinforcements. Jacques Chirac, the French President, has spoken with leaders from several countries to stress the need for a clearer mandate for an enlarged UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon, his office said.

Envoys sent to the region by Annan have so far sent back positive reports, praising the efforts of both the Lebanese and Israeli armies to uphold their obligations under the recently passed UN Resolution 1701.

The Israeli commando raid thus took observers by surprise. The deployment of Lebanese forces and the eventual disarmament of Hezbollah have been a demand of Olmert's government.

Early on Saturday, troops from the Matkal, a special-forces elite unit, launched a commando raid near the Hezbollah stronghold of Baalbek, in the Beka valley. During the ensuing firefight one officer was killed and two injured. Israeli reports said the commandos were in two vehicles unloaded from helicopters, and were on their way to attack the office of a Hezbollah official in the village of Bodai when they were intercepted.

Lebanese security officials said that three Hezbollah guerrillas were killed in the fighting.

Violating the ceasefire on Saturday, Israeli aircraft also fired rockets at a target in eastern Lebanon. The Israel Defence Forces (IDF) said the air raid was aimed at disrupting the shipment of weapons to Hezbollah guerrillas from Syria and Iran.

"Special forces carried out an operation to disrupt terror actions against Israel with an emphasis on the transfer of munitions from Syria and Iran to Hezbollah," an IDF spokesperson said, adding that the operation had achieved its aims.

The Israeli foreign ministry said that continued Hezbollah arms shipments and the absence of Lebanese and international troops on the border had made the raid necessary.

"Israel reserves the right to act in order to enforce the spirit of the [UN] resolution," said spokesperson Mark Regev. Resolution 1701 ordered Israel to end "all offensive military actions" and Hezbollah to end all attacks. It also called for an embargo on unauthorised arms supplies to Lebanon.

Witnesses saw a destroyed bridge not far from the area where the commandos landed. They said they believed it had been destroyed by Israeli missiles.

An Israeli Cabinet minister told Israeli radio that Hezbollah was preventing the UN force entering towns in the south. The minister speculated that, if this did not change, Israelis could be back for a "second round" of fighting in the south.

At least 1 183 people in Lebanon and 157 Israelis were killed in the war. Israel said it had killed more than 530 Hezbollah fighters -- at least five times more than the group has acknowledged. -- Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx...national_news/

===

From Haaretz...

Analysis: Explaining the Baalbek operation to Kofi Annan

By Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correspondent

After several hours' silence, Israel finally came out with an official version of the reconnaissance operation near Baalbek.

The operation was intended to foil the passage of arms from Syria to Hezbollah. The mission was accomplished and on the way back the unit was surprised by Hezbollah fighters. In the battle that ensued one Israeli officer and three Hezbollah fighters were killed.

Israel says the operation was not a violation of the cease-fire, because it was an intelligence-gathering mission, not an attack, which Security Council Resolution 1701 calls against. Had Hezbollah not discovered the unit and it had returned home safely, the operation would have remained covert.

We did not mean to violate the Security Council's resolution, the prime minister's people say. But Israel will not return to the situation of the previous six years and enable Hezbollah to rearm itself.

They said the operative hitch would not jeopardize the cease-fire. Rather, it would encourage troop-contributing states to stop dragging their feet and send their soldiers to the UNIFIL force.

Such covert military operations take place almost daily throughout the Middle East. They are approved by the prime minister and defense minister in small forums.

In this case, too, the operation was authorized in a consultation between Olmert, Peretz and IDF chiefs last Wednesday. Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni did not know of it in advance.

Even so, those who authorized the operation should answer whether they took into account the great political sensitivity of sending a unit into Lebanon with air cover - apart from risking soldiers' lives and a new entanglement.

Before the cease-fire has been stabilized and while the UN force is still being set up, Israel is already operating in Baalbek, providing the other side with excuses not to keep up its end of the deal.

Olmert and Peretz knew the special operations they authorized in Lebanon did not achieve their goals. Yet they are convinced this operation was vital to prevent Hezbollah's arming, even if Olmert will have to explain it to Kofi Annan afterward.

Ray

The ceasefire will not hold it appears.

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Bluesman

Thank God. Worse deal since the 'Buy an Edsel and get the Studebaker for Full Price' sales promotion.

If the country's diplomats can't do any better than THAT, we should all get to take turns being the negotiator.

Just think:

Hawaii will push Undersecretary Ralphie (y'all know Ralphie, down at the garage?) for independence, and end up getting the entire Louisiana Purchase in the 'compromise'.

Puerto Rico and Guam will double-team Lisa (beautician's school; nail polish specialist and Deputy Ambassador for Really Great Little Countries) and end up annexing every American city with 'San' in the name. (She would've done better, but her toddler had to get picked up from daycare, and y'all KNOW what they charge when you're late.)

Jason and Scoob (not Scoob's real name; his 'Counterstrike' screen name) were actually doing pretty good, holding the line against the Canadian push to get their Penobscot Indian allies to reclaim ' the woodsy bits' of New England, and had 'em just about talked down to accepting $40Billion worth of beads in trade, but DUDE, 'Idol' is on, man, and tonight is the 'Rockabilly' theme; can't-miss TV, bro. Jason ended up fighting just to keep the keys to Loring Air Force Base (although Canada says we have to keep the jet noise down until they wake up).

__________________
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

Anon

It wouldn't hold if i was pres of Israel. Hell, it would've never taken effect to begin with.

Not until i got my troops back. End of story.

Even Bill Clinton knows that(he was prepared to level mogadishu to get durant out, that message was delivered to aideed, and aideed give up durant real, real quick).

If i was Israel i'd threaten to level the entire city of Beirut once a week for eternity until i got my man back. Seriously....i'd make it into a national friggin' holiday.

Beirut would never be rebuilt until i got my people back. And i'd make for damned sure they knew it.

Bluesman

I told y'all this was a bad deal, and I was, as usual, right on.

Bluesman

Goddam' French. They get worse every day, and Bush should go on TV and apologize to the entire country for getting hoodwinked by this chiselin' bunch of grifters AGAIN.

Thay are NOT allies, not in any sense of the term. They should be treated as hostile. Because they are.

Amled

They are not exactly my cup of tea either, but I don’t believe that they are hostiles. Not yet, they are simply not your friends.
The time has NOT YET come where it’s time to say: If you are not with us, you are against us.

__________________
When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

Confed999

What other choices are there?

__________________
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

Bluesman

Neutrality. Which, as George Orwell saw so clearly during the rise of totalitarianism, works for the enemy.

In other words, 'against us'.

Look up that Orwell piece, somebody, and post it. He knew what he was talking about, that one, and all us modern-types would do well to heed his words.

Officer of Engineers

Then, why are the Americans, British, Dutch, and Canadians are the only ones conducting combat operations in Afghanistan?

__________________
Chimo