Bluesman

Just so no one forgets WHY this happened, and WHO started it.

And may we all never forget that the two kidnapped Israeli soldiers are STILL in the hands of monsters.

Some cease-fire; some 'leadership'.

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"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

Parihaka

Not to piss you off but that would be three.

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In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz

Bluesman

HAMAS has Cpl Shalit, and NO, he's not home, either. But at least Israel hasn't debased herself to THAT lot.

Yet.

ZFBoxcar

This Israeli government is composed entirely of people with no military experience. This is actually a first. Olmert was heckled in the Knesset for backing down, people are starting to talk about new elections in 6 months. Even though I want to see the soldiers rescued as much as everyone else, Hezbollah being pushed north of the Litani River (if it happens) is more than I expected Israel to accomplish. I was very pessimistic about this war from the beginning as I thought it would degenerate into the sort of conflict Israel faced in the 80s, except without a militarily competent government. Apparently Olmert saw the same thing, and that is why we are a seeing a willingness to agree to the UN 'cease-fire' without getting the soldiers back. I don't like it, but I also don't see how Israel could have successfully found and rescued the captives, given that Hezbollah would probably have done something along the lines of triggering whatever building they are in to explode upon IDF arrival.

Bluesman

It's not about rescuing them. It's about not ABANDONING them.

I never thought the Israelis had a hope in hell of finding and rescuing those guys. What the effort was about was FORCING Hez to give 'em the fukk back, before they got their lungs stomped out of their anuses.

ZFBoxcar

But Hezbollah is a crazy terrorist organization that has been getting only more popular in Lebanon over the last month, and they have been taking less losses than they should be. They can't be forced to return the hostages since there is no public opinion for them to give into and they INTENTIONALLY provoked this invasion in the first place, Israel would either have to take them back or negotiate. In Iraq, have hostages been released after being pressured by the US army? I don't mean that question rhetorically, it's possible I haven't been following the news closely enough, but I haven't heard of hostages being released as the result of military pressure (other than rescues) If taking them back doesn't work, if Hezbollah can't be scared/beaten into returning them, and negotiations are not an option, what can be done?

Maybe Israel could have crushed Hezbollah in the long run, but the last couple of decades argue against it, and also it is likely that world opinion would eventually force Israel to severly hamper its own war effort. Israel does not have the same freedom of action that the US has. Half of Israel's trade is with the EU, while Israel is not very important to Europe economically. If Europe were to boycott the US, Europe would be ****ed, if Europe were to boycott Israel, Israel would be ****ed. Same goes for Asia. And it is possible that the tide could have turned against Israel even in the US if Israel continued a full blown war effort in Lebanon. This raises the question of whether a half-assed war effort forced by global pressure is better than no war effort at all. I would say it isn't if it allows Hezbollah to revel in daily triumphs and/or forcing Israel into pyhrric victories.