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07-13-2006, 14:31 PM
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#31 (permalink)
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Banished
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Originally Posted by dalem
What have the Israelis done to deserve censure here?
-dale
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they're ruining live man, incursions into pal terrtory might show a great show of force but nobody was doubting that, especially the pals who get thier houses knocked downa nd killed in the cross fire.
go for the head if you have beef with hamas, fight hamas, not average abdul. |
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07-13-2006, 14:41 PM
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#32 (permalink)
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WAB Bartender
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Join Date: 11-24-04
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by platinum786
they're ruining live man, incursions into pal terrtory might show a great show of force but nobody was doubting that, especially the pals who get thier houses knocked downa nd killed in the cross fire.
go for the head if you have beef with hamas, fight hamas, not average abdul.
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No. Until these terrorist animals are seen for the scum they are and are routed out of the hellhole that they've made of 'Palestine' (I can use the quote-marks, too!), then EVERYbody suffers.
I've lost patience with these bastards. They celebrated in the street when completely innocent Americans were mass-murdered. They put up posters of suicide murderers. They encourage their young people to embrace death, mayhem and murder. They ELECT TERRORISTS.
And now those chickens have come home to roost.
They deserve what they have wrought. Screw 'em.
__________________
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell
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07-13-2006, 14:47 PM
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#33 (permalink)
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Staff Emeritus
Join Date: 09-10-03
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by Bluesman
They deserve what they have wrought. Screw 'em.
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I've arrived at the same place...
__________________
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry
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07-13-2006, 15:02 PM
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#34 (permalink)
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Senior Contributor
Join Date: 05-12-05
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Originally Posted by Confed999
I've arrived at the same place...
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Yeah man those Izi's can move pretty quick I might add. |
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07-13-2006, 15:11 PM
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#35 (permalink)
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WAB Bartender
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I hope that the soldiers are still alive, and that they can hear the tanks, planes, bombs and screams. They will KNOW that their country is going OFF, all in an effort to get them back, and bring some justified vengeance down on some people that have been asking to get kicked in the jimmy for a long, long time.
During Linebacker II, the Americans being held in Hoa Lo Prison (the famous 'Hanoi Hilton') could hear the MASSIVE bombing from their friends in the Buffs and the Thuds and the Phantoms...and could see the panic on the guards' faces, who just KNEW they were about to lose the war, and would therefore pay for their crimes against the prisoners.
Didn't work out that way, but my point is, these soldiers will know by now that the cavalry is in the saddle and riding to the rescue. It will give 'em heart.
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07-13-2006, 15:12 PM
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#36 (permalink)
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Navajo Code Talker
Senior Contributor
Join Date: 12-27-04
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Originally Posted by sparten
And while they may be able to launch pin pricks attacks like Orsirak, I frankly doubt they can make a sustained strategic bombing operation, they could not do that in the war of attrition with bases in the Sanai, what makes you think they can do that with a country 2000 kms away?
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are you forgetting Yom-Kippur War??? IsAF held total air superiority in that war... although I agree, things didn't start off too pleasant and the Israelis lost a lot of aircraft in the starting of the war (mainly due to Soviet delievered SAM's...), but after about the first few days of fighting, the picture was totally different and the Israeli Airforce ruled the skies...
__________________
Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory
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07-13-2006, 15:16 PM
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#37 (permalink)
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Navajo Code Talker
Senior Contributor
Join Date: 12-27-04
Location: Patiala, India
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by platinum786
they're ruining live man, incursions into pal terrtory might show a great show of force but nobody was doubting that, especially the pals who get thier houses knocked downa nd killed in the cross fire.
go for the head if you have beef with hamas, fight hamas, not average abdul.
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you're absolutely right.. lives ARE being ruined... you'd figure those terrorists would stop but they continue to wage war and bring misery upon their own people.. its sad really... and then the people of Pal. happen to be so brainwashed that they start electing terrorists to represent them... ermm.. bad idea, if you have peace on your mind... |
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07-13-2006, 18:00 PM
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#38 (permalink)
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Tonight is going to be the most interesting night in the history of the middle east.
Just heard reports that Hezbollah has launched around 25 missiles into Norther Israel implementing some hefty damage..
The Israeli airstrikes and missile strikes will not only be in Lebanon and Gaza tonight. They will potently be hitting Damscus and Tehran.
This dispute was long on the cards.
Although i feel sorry for the civillians in the crossroads these terrorists deserve this and i support Israel's offensive.
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07-13-2006, 18:25 PM
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#39 (permalink)
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Staff Emeritus
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Originally Posted by Commando
i support Israel's offensive.
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Counter-offensive. |
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07-13-2006, 18:42 PM
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#40 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: 11-10-04
Location: Te Ika a Maui
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Originally Posted by visioninthedark
This is my personal understanding of this issue - please note; I am not taking sides - just trying to understand what happened and why - do share your views and educate me with your views.
Actually - lets see both sides of the story:
Hizbollah - claim that they have been negotiating for the release of more than 10,000 Palestinian and Labenese prisnors still in Israeli prisons despite the Israeli pullout from Southern Lebanon nearly 5 years ago - and negotiations have repeatedly failed.
Hizbollah claim that Israel should have released its prisnors as was the deal - and they have tried negotiating but to no avail - so they take prisnor two IDF soldiers to use as a swap for their more than 10,000 prisnors in Israel.
Israel - after having reacted strongly to he capture of their soldier in Gaza was trying to send the message that this type of action does not payy-off for the captors - precisely to avoid more soldiers being captured - but exactly what they wanted to preven has happened!
Now the Israelis are in a fix - if the negotiate with Hizbollah straight away it will make their actions in Gaza look stupid - I mean - why not negotiate there in the first place as well!!
SO - they have to give a similar reply IN THE BEGINNING! - just to maintain that they will not take lightly the captpture of their soldiers.
Now - to be fair to the Israelis - they are not directly targeting civiliand - most of their attacks have been so as to destroy targets of strategic value without unnecessary loss of civilian life - but as in all wars - civilians do get caught in the cross-fire.
Prediction - both sides will be caught up in a spiral of violence - but eventually - this will be solved through negotiations and a prisnor swap when Israeli public opinion sees that that is the only way forward.
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You forgot to mention that hizbollah signed up with the UN to disarm after Isreal withdrew from Lebanon. Somehow they seem to have forgotten to do that, and somehow the UN has forgotten to enforce it. Hizbollah are toast. |
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07-13-2006, 18:49 PM
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#41 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: 11-10-04
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Oh, and I do believe the Israeli Prime Minister has declared officially that the attacks on Isreal were an act of war.
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07-14-2006, 01:54 AM
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#42 (permalink)
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Actus Reus
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Originally Posted by Tronic
are you forgetting Yom-Kippur War??? IsAF held total air superiority in that war... although I agree, things didn't start off too pleasant and the Israelis lost a lot of aircraft in the starting of the war (mainly due to Soviet delievered SAM's...), but after about the first few days of fighting, the picture was totally different and the Israeli Airforce ruled the skies...
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I said a strategic bombing campaign, and war of attrition, not close air support and Yom Kippur War. You should read a bit more.
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Originally Posted by Bluesman
Didn't work out that way, but my point is, these soldiers will know by now that the cavalry is in the saddle and riding to the rescue. It will give 'em heart.
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If they are still alive. Would'nt be surprised.
Wonder what Olmert's endgame is? If the two soldiers are dead, then well he got pretty big egg on his face, instead of sending in a proper (read special forces) rescue team, he sends in a division, which probabaly sealed their fates anyhow. 100,000 Israelis had to be evacated for nothing. The can penetrate all the way up to beruit, but then its a repeat of 1982. And possibly Syria getting involved. All of whih israel does not want.
Someone in the IDF or Cabinnat has miscalculated, badly.
Or we are all missing something.
__________________
"Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell
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07-14-2006, 02:07 AM
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#43 (permalink)
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Staff Emeritus
Join Date: 09-10-03
Location: Florida
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sparten
100,000 Israelis had to be evacated for nothing.
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They had to be evacuated because Lebanon went to war with Israel. |
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07-14-2006, 10:59 AM
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#44 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: 08-03-03
Location: Montreal, Canada
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Someone in the IDF or Cabinnat has miscalculated, badly.
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Well actually it could go either way, if the Israelis play their cards right it will be Hezbollah that miscalculated, if the Israelis have learned nothing from their last trip to Lebanon, then you're right.
From the Toronto Star
Quote:
Hezbollah may have overplayed its hand
Islamic group bids to fill power vacuum
But risks underestimating Israeli resolve
Jul. 14, 2006. 01:00 AM
MITCH POTTER
MIDDLE EAST BUREAU
JERUSALEM—There are multiple reasons why Hezbollah chose precisely this moment to throw an already turbulent Middle East into cartwheels of even greater turmoil.
But for most observers, none stands larger than the militant Shiite Muslim movement's overarching quest to elevate itself as the pre-eminent defender of the pan-Arab realm.
Whatever secondary reasons may come into play — and there is no question that for Hezbollah's sponsors in Syria and Iran the new crisis presents a convenient diversion from the critical issues confronting them — Arab-Muslim pride is paramount.
Scan the Arab press response to Wednesday's cross-border abductions of two Israeli soldiers and you will soon get the idea. The London-based daily Al-Quds al-Arabi cast the Hezbollah raid as "Arab-Islamic solidarity in its brightest form." The Saudi-financed Al-Hayat hailed it the best imaginable answer to Israel's "brutal terrorism in Gaza," proclaiming Hezbollah's expertise in "deterring the Israeli insolence."
The Syrian propaganda sheet Al-Thawra poured praise on Israel's "humiliation" as a tonic for the bruised Arab soul.
With Iraq sliding powerlessly toward civil war and the Palestinian Gaza Strip a mess as never before, Hezbollah seized a moment where intent, opportunity and impact blended for maximum synchronicity.
"Put the Hezbollah attacks in the context of history: Gamal Abdul Nasser the great Arab nationalist is gone, (Iraq's) Saddam Hussein is crushed, (Libya's) Moammar Gadhafi is domesticated and (the late Palestinian leader) Yasser Arafat was quarantined," said Dan Schueftan, a senior fellow at the Shalem Centre, a Jerusalem-based research centre. "Everyone is gone. So by acting now, Hezbollah is exploiting that vacuum to establish itself, at the service of Iran, as the last hope for radicals in the Middle East."
There is a huge gamble involved in Hezbollah's play — the bet that sooner or later Israel will submit to its ransom demands, as it has done in the past, and leave the group's Beirut-based leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah as the saviour of Arab dignity.
But the bellicose mood gathering momentum throughout Israel suggests that this time Hezbollah's bet is sorely misplaced.
"This is not arm-wresting or a test of false machismo. It is a fateful battle: a victory over Israel, even the symbolic-propaganda type ... will release demons across the entire Middle East," commentator Sever Plotzker wrote yesterday on the front page of Yedioth Ahronoth, Israel's largest-circulation daily.
"Preventing their victory is absolutely imperative and non-negotiable."
Eyal Zisser, dean of Middle Eastern History at Tel Aviv University, said, "The tone of voice in Jerusalem indicates that someone has decided to tear the mask from his face. Nasrallah does not want an all-out war, but he may no longer be in control of events."
For Israel, the crucial strategic priority now is to hit back, but not in such a way as not to entangle itself in yet another hopeless ground invasion, let alone a spillover into Syria or Iran.
Memories of the 18 miserable years the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) spent in southern Lebanon, ending in unilateral withdrawal in 2000, are still too fresh.
Instead, Israel's military leaders are expected to continue hitting primarily from the air every installation the forces can find bearing Hezbollah colours.
The end result of that aerial bombardment, expected to play out over the next several days, is meant to erase any trace of Hezbollah missile sites weaponry within range of Israeli towns and cities.
When the dust settles, the new status quo will no longer feature Hezbollah watchtowers within sight of the Israeli border. And if the captured soldiers are still alive at that point, Israel may be persuaded to cease its fire.
"Hezbollah made the mistake of thinking an untested Israeli leadership would repeat the past and back down," said Meir Javandanfar of the Middle East Analysis Company.
"But what they didn't realize is that the overwhelming majority of Israel's generals are not only ready to fight, but ready to take some bruises along the way. And they are not going to leave the ring until Hezbollah has a very bloody nose."
Javandanfar, an expert on Iran, put little stock in Israel's warning last night that Hezbollah was attempting to turn over to Tehran the captured Israel soldiers.
"Israel is trying to raise the general international concern about how out of hand the situation is getting. But if you look at Hezbollah's history over the past 10 years, handing over the soldiers would be a devastating mistake. It would prove to the Lebanese they are charging up their credit card for someone else's interests," he said.
There is yet one massive error Israel may commit as it wages war on Hezbollah in the coming days.
It may repeat the errors of a similar onslaught in 1996, when Israeli warplanes were directed to attack business interests throughout Lebanon in its campaign against Hezbollah.
The intent was to motivate neutral Lebanese Christians and Sunni Muslims to rise up against Hezbollah, but the reaction was opposite.
"The only thing that will save Hezbollah from themselves at this point is a huge Israeli military overreaction," Javandanfar told the Star.
"Israel needs to attack Hezbollah and Hezbollah alone. If it goes beyond, it runs the big risk of energizing all the Lebanese against Israel."
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07-14-2006, 14:12 PM
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#45 (permalink)
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Staff Emeritus
Join Date: 08-03-03
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by parihaka
You forgot to mention that hizbollah signed up with the UN to disarm after Isreal withdrew from Lebanon. Somehow they seem to have forgotten to do that, and somehow the UN has forgotten to enforce it. Hizbollah are toast.
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The UN was just too busy damning Israel after they started bombing to care about Hezbollah keeping their word. |
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