sparten

Israels largest trade partner is the US, with all trade being based on MFN and FTA. Not to mention 3 bn dollers direct aid.

But you are right about the software.

__________________
"Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

TopHatter

One would hope that the Arabs have done the same self-analysis with themselves and their economies.

__________________
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.
~John Quincy Adams

Shek

This is BS. The Israelis have shown themselves more than willing to enter into peace agreements. The countries that haven't entered into a peace agreement have chosen not to do so because said action would mean recognizing Israel as legitimate and would take away Israel as the domestic anger deflection device.

As far as the US argument, Israel has proven itself more than capable of whipping Arab states before becoming a benefactor of US aid. Look at the Hanagrah (excuse my for certain misspelling). They fought practically using pots and pans and still came out on top in 1948.

However, I would buy your argument if it were that the Arabs cannot survive more than a couple of generations if they don't move beyond their oil reserves, which won't last forever.

Heck, look at Gaza - they handed over greenhouses in the middle of the desert that were able to feed the Jewish settlers. They made something out of nothing. In response, the Palestinians destroyed the greenhouses because they were Jewish. That's the same sort of self-defeatism that the Arabs have practiced since 1948 as they've impaled themselves on the IDF, and the same sort of self-defeatism that the Palestinians are practicing today.

__________________
"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

Shek

Sparten,

The Israeli GDP is $140bn (PPP). $3bn, while nice, doesn't underpin the Israeli economy.

As far as MFN and FTA, the US extends MFN status to all WTO members except for a handful of exceptions, and it has numerous FTAs, to include several with other Middle Eastern countries. In the end, though, this is a red herring, as private firms aren't obligated to purchase Israeli goods. Thus, the trade is generated because these Israeli goods are the most efficient goods on the market.

Shek

Another way to look at the productivity of the various Middle Eastern economies is to look at GDP per capita. Only the UAE has a higher per capita than Israel (approximately 10% greater), and Israel's GDP per capita is:

10x Algeria's
12x Egypt's
10x Jordan's
1.3x Kuwait's
15x Morroco's
2x Saudi Arabia's
7x Tunisia's
6x Turkey's

Take away oil, and the disparity grows even larger. I say that time is on Israel's side, and not with its neighbors.

Here's the source for this comparison: [url]http://www.euromonitor.com/pdf/Consumer_Middle_East_2006_Samples.pdf

ZFBoxcar

What do you mean by accepting that it is part of the middle east and integrating itself? What is Israel doing now that conflicts with those aims?

The only danger to Israel today is demographic, not economic. Trade with the EU and US has been sufficient for Israeli growth, although they now have significant trade ties with Eastern Europe and East Asia as well. Trade with the Arabs would be great, but if they don't want to, Israel can certainly survive, as its economy is almost the same size as Egypt's, Jordan's, Syria's, and Lebanon's put togethor ($148 billion = Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, $121 billion = Israel [both figures are at official exchange rates]). Oh, and Israel does have full economic relations with Egypt and Jordan, although many of their firms choose not to do business with Israel.

Shek

ZF,
Thanks. The number of patents is certainly impressive. I'd be curious to see how many of those were military, although I doubt that it would be more than 1/4 to 1/3.

As far as the genocide argument, I don't buy the assumptions. If Russia decided to start killing those who didn't emigrate already, there's nothing that Israel or the UN could do to stop it. I think that the examples of Rwanda and the Darfur illustrate that the UN isn't failsafe with regards to genocides, and while Israel has demonstrated its acumen on both the battlefield and with its spycraft, it wouldn't be up to the task of having to project power to end large scale killings. However, the point of Israel serving as a safeguard against extinction is taken, although I find such a scenario unrealistic given the current state of geopolitics.

Nonetheless, I get the impression that you don't buy whole heartedly into this argument, so I am not trying to shoot the messenger here

ZFBoxcar

No problem. I've got no idea how many of them were military though.

The assumptions are based on the Germany of the 1930s, not the Germany of the 1940s. In the 1930s, Jews were allowed to leave, the problem is that nobody would take them. The West and Latin America let in a few thousand (Canada's record is particularly pitiful in this regard, with our prime minister saying of the number of refugees he would allow in: "none is too many"), but this was obviously not enough. The voyage of the St. Louis is the symbol of this rejection. Israel is not supposed to have the power to halt another country from inflicting genocide (although it is probably closer to being that powerful than the original Zionists ever imagined), it is supposed to be the one place that cannot turn away Jewish refugees. In todays world that may not be necessary, but one could make that argument about the relatively tolerant 19th century. Eras of benevolence can come to an end, which is still an important justification for Israel's existance.

Agreed. I am not saying the world is still out to get the Jews (only part of it ), but it can't hurt to be careful when you've got thousands of years of precedent.

Well there is SOME empirical evidence supporting the argument. The most important being the rescue of the Ethiopian Jews and the exodus of Soviet Jewry (even though some were just using Israel as a means of getting into the US). Although there are individual stories like Parihaka's friend whose family walked from Iraq to Israel. There are similar tales numbering in the thousands from accross the Arab world. Of course, one can argue that if Israel hadn't been created there would have been no need to escape...which is true but infuriating since the Arab Jews had nothing to do with the creation of Israel. In the sense that you meant it, the Ethiopian example is the only time that Israel used muscle to save a Jewish population. The only reason I don't buy whole heartedly into the argument is that the existance of Israel puts all the eggs in one basket, so to speak. If, for example, Iran were to nuke Israel, then it will all have been pointless.

Confed999

Name another one of those with the same objectives.

__________________
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

sparten

Firstly what the hell do you mean by that?

As for Israels economic preformance, heres a far more realistic apprisal than Major Sheks links ( I had got this last year, but usually economic analysis are available about the year before so bear with me).
http://www.brook.edu/fp/saban/events/20031113.pdf#search='Israeli%20economy%20dependant '

Israels largets sectors are in no particular order, tourism,defence, agriculture and softwere, the first is obvioulsy dependant on the security situation, the rest well everyone is hurt by EU farm subsidies, and software is something that is going east. That leaves defence, with India being Israels biggest market, IIRC.

Israels public debt is 101% of the GDP, with an unemployment rate of about 10.6% , and 20% of the popultaion lives below the poverty line, which is less than Jordan, but more than Egypt (16%) and IIRC about the same as Syria.

Israels unemployemnt rate is infact the highest in the region exceptn for Jordan.

Tarde with Arab countries is the states only way forward, (in addition to reconstruction of the economic setup).

ZFBoxcar

An Arab majority would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state. We can discuss the merits of the existance of Israel if you want (although I can't promise to be dispassionate about it), but regardless of whether you wish Israel well or not, an Arab majority would kill it.

Your economic information is a bit out of date

About 98% now.

Less than 8.9% now. Not fantastic, but better than France and Germany.

I don't think poverty in Israel is the same thing as poverty in Egypt, Jordan or Syria. Israel is a first world country whether you like it or not.

See above, and also, Israel's government doesn't purposely keep inefficient nationalized industries or bloated bureacracies just to keep unemployment down, as some countries do.

Besides my response of "no, Israel can develop independent of the Arabs as it has for over 50 years", I repeat my previous question: in what way is Israel opposing trade with Arab countries?

troung

Oh they trade...

Israel has out sourced jobs in texitles to Jordan and Egypt so the foundations for increased trade are there. Both sides have had problems from their own populations from trade relations.

__________________
To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

Gavrilo Princip

So I guess historical accuracy is something that's traditionally left out of Judaic/Islamic animosity?

sparten

Fun fact, in the British Mandate of palestine, Jews and Muslim; Arabs were often on the same side against the European Jews.

Its a political, and a recent political issue.

ArmchairGeneral

LOL. I saw part of the title for this thread, "Why do Jews and Arabs..." and completed it in my head "hate each other" without even thinking about it.
<edit> Kind of depressing, but then, I like my humor like my coffee, dark.

__________________
"Apocalyptic thought is curiously pleasurable."
-Theodore Dalrymple