Thread: Iran Flamed by Super Virus

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Don't forget that Tora Bora sits right next to the Pakistani border. America couldn't station troops on Pakistani soil without violating Pakistan sovereignty and US did ask PA to block off the area.

That was Operation HARPOON. It failed to get any of the AQ leaders. They've already took off. If the Canadians could not contain them in such a small area, how do you expect the Pakistanis to do better over a wider area?

Originally Posted by Blademaster

You are talking about an escape of 2000 or more Talibans and Al Queda who escaped. That cannot escape notice by the PA.

Yes, they could. The Taliban amassed forces of 500-1200 to challenge the Americans, the British, and the Canadians. If they could mass these forces under NATO noses, what makes you think the Pakistanis could do any better.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Where are you going with the "entire army now instead of half" You are getting off the tangent.

No, I'm not. You are not making any sense. The Pakistani Army is Pakistan. An anti-Islamabad insurgency by definition is anti-Pakistani Army ... or do you subscribe to the Pakistani Army does not run Pakistan? What you are suggesting is that the Pakistani Army is allowing the Taliban to challenge their rule over Pakistan.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Not if you are going against air power and artillery. You have to provide covering fire and scouts & recon in order to use the escape route less the hostile force discover you using the escape route and block off that route.

No you don't. The cover of night worked extremely good.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

That was Operation HARPOON. It failed to get any of the AQ leaders. They've already took off. If the Canadians could not contain them in such a small area, how do you expect the Pakistanis to do better over a wider area?

Yes, they could. The Taliban amassed forces of 500-1200 to challenge the Americans, the British, and the Canadians. If they could mass these forces under NATO noses, what makes you think the Pakistanis could do any better.

I am not sure of NATO's orbat at the time of Tora Bora but the total number of troops were less than around 12,000 only covering one side of Tora Bora wheras the other side of Tora Bora stretched for miles and miles beyond what the eye could see.

No, I'm not. You are not making any sense. The Pakistani Army is Pakistan. An anti-Islamabad insurgency by definition is anti-Pakistani Army ... or do you subscribe to the Pakistani Army does not run Pakistan? What you are suggesting is that the Pakistani Army is allowing the Taliban to challenge their rule over Pakistan.

What I am saying is that there are some elements in the PA that adhere to Taliban ideology.

No you don't. The cover of night worked extremely good.

Have you ever considered the logistics of moving 2000 men in the cover of night? It would take several days to transverse in the open. Not only that, you have to know the routes extremely well since you won't have the benefit of night goggles and the night is dark without moonlight or little moonlight. You have to set up waypoints to provide resting and water and sustenance. Tranversing the mountains up thousands of feet is no easy task and there are pitfalls along the way if you are not careful, you will die. You need local guides for the entire journey. Do you have enough local guides to guide 200 bands of ten people? It has to be small bands otherwise it would be noticed by satellites, aerial surveillance and local populace.

I am sure others have done it before but with American technology at the forefront? I don't think so. They received help. Lots of help, period. Now it may be the local populace but I do not think so. I strongly feel that some elements of PA who subscribed to the Taliban ideology tendered assistance and aid. The question is whether the higher-ups knew about it and said nothing.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

I am not sure of NATO's orbat at the time of Tora Bora but the total number of troops were less than around 12,000 only covering one side of Tora Bora wheras the other side of Tora Bora stretched for miles and miles beyond what the eye could see.

You're contradicting yourself. Here you say that NATO was incapable of stopping this massing.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Have you ever considered the logistics of moving 2000 men in the cover of night? It would take several days to transverse in the open. Not only that, you have to know the routes extremely well since you won't have the benefit of night goggles and the night is dark without moonlight or little moonlight. You have to set up waypoints to provide resting and water and sustenance. Tranversing the mountains up thousands of feet is no easy task and there are pitfalls along the way if you are not careful, you will die. You need local guides for the entire journey. Do you have enough local guides to guide 200 bands of ten people? It has to be small bands otherwise it would be noticed by satellites, aerial surveillance and local populace.

I am sure others have done it before but with American technology at the forefront? I don't think so. They received help. Lots of help, period. Now it may be the local populace but I do not think so. I strongly feel that some elements of PA who subscribed to the Taliban ideology tendered assistance and aid. The question is whether the higher-ups knew about it and said nothing.

And here you're saying the Americans could have blasted them at will.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

What I am saying is that there are some elements in the PA that adhere to Taliban ideology.

Name me one Pakistani General who would kneel before Omar or OBL.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

You're contradicting yourself. Here you say that NATO was incapable of stopping this massing.

And here you're saying the Americans could have blasted them at will.

Name me one Pakistani General who would kneel before Omar or OBL.

I am saying that if the Americans find you, they can kill you. But if they cannot find you, they cannot kill you. Americans have this great technology for killing people once they find them but the greatest weakness is still surveillance and locating of enemy forces without the aid of HUMINT. If PA had provided real time intelligence, Americans would have had the opportunity to kill them with ease, given their stand off attack capabilities. But because PA was unable (your way of thinking)/unwilling (my way of thinking), Americans had to relay on their own technology which has shown its limits in the absence of HUMINT.

As for a Pakistani general kneeling or bowing before Omar or OBL, now you are just twisting my words in a faux pas argument. I never said that. I said affinity for Taliban ideology. Don't forget that PA was the one that created Taliban so it is not a case of Pakistan general bowing before Omar or OBL but a case of Omar and his cronies bowing before PA and pleading for protection. Witness the safe havens that Taliban currently enjoys in Pakistan.

We're going in circles. I'm not going to convince you that the Pakistanis were extremely lacking in capabilities right at the start of this war. They were psychologically and physically oriented the wrong way, ie India. I will agree with you that once they figure out the Americans were not going to do anything about their failures that they start doing more hindrance than good.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Or could it be, speaking from experience? You may think I am generalizing but I am not. I am looking at the facts on the ground and given OOE's statements that PA was so scared of being bombed back into the Stone Age, I would think that they would have this capability of focusing enough resources to help the Americans but they didn't because they were "a penny wise, a pound foolish." They thought that if they could shelter their creation, the Taliban, from destruction and wait out the American presence, they would come out the top. Years later, they find out that they were wrong about that and has come out on the losing side.

You're implying here that Pak was unwilling. How can they be unwilling if they were scared ?

Originally Posted by Blademaster

If they were so scared of being bombed back to Stone Age, I am sure that they would have put in decent efforts to demonstrate to Americans that they are allies of America by shifting the troops from Indian border to Afghani border. That would have earn Pakistan tremendous goodwill and actually put America firmly in the Pakistan's camp because now America would be guaranteeing Pakistan's border with India and India would have been in an inferior position despite Operation Vijay/Pakakhran(sp?) India would have never launched that kind of response. America would have told India to shut the hell up or there will be hell to pay.

Fortunately for India, PA and Pakistan was too stupid to realize that and played to their primal instincts.

Operation Parakram wound down by Jun 2002.

What explanation does the Pak Army chief give when queried as to why he shifted troops away from the eastern border given the Indian presence ?

If India draws down troops as well he has an answer otherwise not. As it turns out we reduced troops by 15k on the Kashmir border in Oct 2009.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

They had the resources to fight against the Soviet, one of the mightiest superpowers in the world, but not the resources to fight against Taliban which they themselves have created??

Well, how well have they fared against the TTP ? An even smaller outfit.

You agree they have an interest in fighting the TTP.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Yeah I am not letting Pakistan off the hook on this because they were the ones that created the problem in the first place. They don't get a free pass. Sorry.

OOE is making a very narrow point, namely that the border cannot be sealed. That is all.

I think that is quite apparent and easy to test.

He is not saying Paks are completely helpless in doing anything against the Taliban in general.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

I have always respected the independent thinking as long as there are no mandated group thinking.

If his contention can be tested where is the problem.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Of course no border is secure enough to stop one man or a small group of people crossing, but the same group crossing on multiple times or large number of groups crossing many times??? Come on, you know better than that. That takes logistical support, something that is not easy to hide.

At what point does it become easy to hide and at what point is it difficult.

To stop it requires an inordinate amount of resources to do. This is why we have decided to fence off India from Pakistan, Bangladesh as well as Burma. Evidently, we've already realised neither Pakistan nor Bangladesh could prevent their people infiltrating into India.

If that is the case then why is it so hard to accept the same with Afghanistan. I'm confident that ISAF realised this many years ago.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

You can reduce the problem to a level where the Taliban's effect is marginal or negligible. That's what the Afghans and Saleh are so pissed off about Pakistan. They firmly believe that Pakistan can reduce the level to a negligible effect with the given resources provided by America. For god's sakes, US even provided Pakistan night goggles and aerial surveillance technology. But where did the PA use them? Against the Indian side. Pakistan played the US like suckers and the US refused to admit that it got played by Pakistan, including OOE.

If India is any example then Afghanistan would be better served by fencing themselves at the Pak border. That will provide a reduction but the problem is this idea will not be acceptable in Afghanistan. Pakistan however would not object as it would in a way be creating a physical border over a contested area. Here we go

Afghanistan 'border fence' clash | BBC | Apr 19 2007

Islamabad says it has no choice but to fence sections of the mountainous 2,640km-long border if it is to comply with repeated calls by the international community to stop Taleban insurgents based in Pakistan from mounting attacks inside Afghanistan.

The Afghan government says it has begun diplomatic efforts to stop Pakistan from fencing the border.

Afghanistan argues that the border between the two countries - known as the Durand Line - is disputed because it cuts off part of its territory.

Plan to fence, mine Afghan border | Dawn | 23rd June, 2011

The plan has been there for some time and specific details were also worked out by the security establishment, but it was put on hold because of opposition from Kabul.

Heavily armed militants have crossed into Pakistan’s border more than four times in less than 25 days and clashed with Pakistan’s border forces.

In a recent attack by militants in Mohmand this month, the Pakistan Air Force had to be called in to recapture a post.

The clash led to the death of 25 militants while several Frontier Corps soldiers were injured.The military is concerned over the increasing infiltration.

Here the Paks cannot stop insurgents coming into Pak from Af. They cannot stop people coming in or going in the other direction.

Saleh can whine & bitch all he wants but if he cannot stop the problem then what good does it do.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

No what I am saying is that US got played like a sucker and I am saying, wake up!!! Fortunately some of the people are waking up and on the other side of the coin, it is rather too late to wake up since now the boat has sailed.

I would say after ten years it should be easier to make more objective observations.

Originally Posted by Blademaster

US may have not be able to seal the border, but it could have seen through Pakistan's duplicity/perfidy and not provide those weapons that will undoubtedly be used against India. For instance, what use are the 2000 TOW missiles? They are not effective against Taliban since they have no armor or heavily fortified strongholds that they could use to withstand against PA. Same thing with fighter jets. Vastly overkill against the Taliban. Americans should have provide more surveillance technology along the border of Afghan and Pakistan and shared the intel with Pakistan. They would have come to a conclusion much quicker that the PA had no intention of giving up the Talibans even though the Talibans were not willing to give up the fight against US.

Those and all arms the Americans supply them should be seen as increasing Pak confidence in deterring India.

A Pakistan that thinks it cannot deter India is a danger to itself and everybody else.