Alamgir

From: THE FOLLY OF ATTACKING IRAN

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Dreadnought

Lets discuss as well another "Folly"
1) Iranian weapons killing US soldiers in Iraq.
2) Iran threatening Israel with distruction.
3) The two largest Communist nations protecting Iran. (Russia,China)
4) Al Sadr and his connection to Iran.

And the biggest "Folly" of all. Iran believeing that will get a nuclear weapon.

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Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

bolo121

Actually, the only reason iran isnt getting a visit from uncle sam is that
1)political consensus building capital lost in iraq
2)Ground forces fully committed to iraq
3)Russia and China having fun
Otherwise, the bombs and cruise missiles would be falling and US army would be right behind to collect the pieces of wmd industry left.
Remember, they dont have to stay, just wreck the wmd program.

FullTank

Alamgir, agreed that lot of mistake was done regarding Iran in the past.

While I am of the opinion that Iranians deserve a better deal, shall shed no tears over A-Mad-Jad and his lunatic missions.

There is no excuse for someone like A-Mad-Jad remaining in power.

He has to go and someone will ensure that, whether the Iranians themselves or someone else. It is best for the Iranian population, their future and the rest of the world that the Iranians themselves remove him and join the rest of the international community.

As for nuclear weapons Iran is not going to get it. Its upto Iran to negotiate and get some benefits or get its people bombed and experience an Iraq. Iran is not going to get nuclear weapons.Period.

Zemco

If there was credible evidence that Iran had a nuclear weapons program, the US would have already attacked.

The claim that "political consensus building capital lost in iraq" fails. Remember? Clinton attack Yugoslavia without any authorization from Congress. Bush can order air strikes and even ground forces any time he wants. He has 48 hours from the start of hostilities to issue a report to Congress, then another 60 days from then (a total of 62 days) to get the job done. If Congress has not declared war or not provided funding for continued operations, then Bush must order the military to cease operations or like Clinton, snub Congress and continue military action anyway.

As a lame-duck president, Bush wouldn't suffer any political consequences.

Certainly the Republicans are intelligent enough to create a political out for McCain so that he can sit the fence and be undamaged regardless of the outcome.

WorldCitizen

If Iran invaded Mexico, toppled its government, executed it's leaders, destroyed its infrastructures, and watched the country slide into civil war whilst building permanent military bases, would the US sit idly by and watch? Or would it get it's hands dirty?

You're referring to the speech where he referred to removing the zionist regime occupying Jerusalem rather than destroying Israel? Or something else?

???

Cowman88

Iran has been working against the US since the late 70s where have you been

WorldCitizen

The US & UK have been "working against" Iran for a lot longer.

Lest we forget; In 1953, the US & UK overthrew the parliamentary government and installed a brutal dictator, the Shah, who ruled until 1979.

In 1979, the Iranian polulace overthrew the dictator, and since then the United States has been essentially torturing Iran. First it tried a military coup. Then it supported Saddam Hussein during Iraq's invasion of Iran, which killed hundreds of thousands of people. Then, after that was over, the United States started imposing harsh sanctions on Iran. And it's getting worse.

The point is: Iran is out of control. It's supposed to be a US client-state, as it was under the Shah, and it's refusing to play that role.

Dreadnought

*Of exactly what relivence is this. If you want to argue about removing Saddam there is an entire thread on just that. What Iran is doing in Iraq is pure terrorism. Very very much like Syria in Lebannon attempting to control government power by religious terrorism and funding,training and giving weapons to these groups.

Lets answer each question.

1)If Iran invaded Mexico.

Iraq invaded Quwait for no reason whatsoever murdered,plundered and set their biggest assets afire. Namely the oil fields. Disrupting the world market etc.

2) Toppled it's government, Executed its leaders.

Saddams government was warned after his first ass kicking in Quwait. The U.S. allowed him to retreat back to Iraq and rethink the matter. The U.N. sanctioned his regime through the oil for food programs which he circumvented through back door dealings. Saddam also played around the IAE inspections. Threatening others with programs of mass destruction all of this time. He executed thousands of people because of being the wrong religion and for a blown chance of assinating him. It did not take 148 people to attempt to assinate him but yet 148 were killed because of it. Women and children and a majority of the men killed had nothing to do with it but he had them killed none the less using mustard and sarin filled shells. Which I might add were found and are weapons of mass destruction. Something that by U.N. sanction Saddam was not supposed to have.

Furthermore we did not execute its leaders. The US military was charged with hunting them down so they could stand trial. If resistance was encountered then the US attacked. Saddam himself and his other minions had their day in Iraqi court with and Iraqi judge and was televised for the world to see. He was executed under Iraqi law and hung by Iraqi executioners. The US had zero to do with it except deliver the package to court and keep him garded during the trials up until his last days. It was only when Saddam himself was caught did he want to make a deal. Not before and not until.

3) Destroyed its infastructures.

When the US invaded Iraq certain structures were destroyed as per US doctrine. That keeps it soldiers safe and air superiority established. The US itself did not damage water works, oil fields etc. That was extremeists and seeing as though it is one of the larger oil supplies this would count as a major part of infastructure and income to the Iraqi people.

4) Watched it slide into Civil War.
First and foremost the US did not sit back and watch anything. And certainly was not buiding bases while this was happening. The majority of the bases used for Iraqs invasion came from outside of Iraq. When you have a population that is religiously charged it is very diffacult to stop them from clashing. And when you have outside influences such as AQ, Iran and other countries fueling the religious strife it is very hard for any Western forces to contain it. That is why we want them to have their own government. One that works in conjunction with their culture and their heritage.

Saddam was a murderer of intold thousands pure and simple.

*No I am referring to his (Iran president) call for the destruction of Israel itself. A much different story and a very grave statement to make especially when Israel would be criticized for moving first. Syria found that out not long ago and still wont own up to exactly what Israel destroyed. Iran will not be allowed to posses a nuclear weapon under any religious regime especially this particular one.

Oscar

America's interest is to have no predominant regional power in the middle east so it can act as a power broker. But now that saddam is dead there's only Iran left. That's why US is so mad at Iran

WorldCitizen

Hi Dreadnought,

What you might call terrorism, they might call resisting an illegal occupation. It doesn't make much sense to talk about "interfering" with a state that is subject to such an occupation.

No reason whatsoever? Could the same not be said about the Anglo-American invasion?

Just like there's a whole thread about whether removing Saddam was a good idea, there's a whole thread about the genocidal Oil for Food program.

Saddam was a brutal murderer. I think we can agree on that. But the illegal invasion (which was, to use your term, "pure terrorism" IMHO) has resulted in the deaths of more people that Saddam ever killed.

I don't think I'm alone in wondering whether the trial was free from US interference. The fact that he was charged convicted and executed for one of the crimes that didn't have US backing makes me suspicious. His greatest crimes (the ones which were backed by the US) were never allowed to see the inside of the courtroom, he was executed before anything could happen to bring these to light.

Of course he was. But the same was true while he was your trusted friend and ally.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Got a source?

Thanks for your post, a lot of food for thought.

Dreadnought

*From a country that was at war with Iraq for years I seriously doubt that have any good intentions for the Iraqi people except attempting to influence its government and spread religious terrorism.The very same as Hezbollah and choice others on that list.

*Saddam considered Quwait an Iraqi province which it is not. Is that sufficient reason for an invasion and destruction of Quwaits infastructure,Rape,Murder,Pillage?

*A genocidal Oil for Food program that U.N. leader Koffi Annans own son participated in as well. Thats why they are gone.

* We are not a waring country over religious reasoning. Everbody loves to point the finger at the U.S. but yet turn blind eyes to all the religious groups killing others because you are the wrong religion in their eyes not ours.

* If the trial was deemed influenced by the U.S. keep this in mind. Saddam was found by U.S. forces and any one of those soldiers could have ended his life out in the middle of no where on a farm where he was found without any witnesses and could have offered that he got away even know they know he was dead. It was not for US troops to punish him and they could have effortlessly. It was for the Iraqi people to charge him with crimes against them his own people and for them to punish him. Once delivered to Iraqi's he was strictly "hands off".

* His crimes also included the planned for assination of a U.S. president. If your advisary planned to assisnate you would you give him a free second chance?

*Please do share what exactly were his "greatest crimes"?


Links...Google:Iran threatens Israel there are more links then you can read in one sitting.

WorldCitizen

As we've discussed earlier, if one of your enemies invaded and occupied Mexico, or Canada, would you do nothing? Or would you seek to "influence"?

There was no justification for the Iraqi invasion of Quwait. Just as there was no justification for the Anglo-American invasion of Iraq.

I value human life, human rights, international law etc. If the finger is pointed at the US, it might be because it needs to be pointed. Many people feel that the US acts as a self appointed world cop, transcending international law. This might be why the finger is pointing the way it is. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of religious extremism, but the scale of destruction the US leaves in it's wake puts it at the top of the list for finger pointing.

I'm not sure that's true. They needed to be able to parade him on television.

Shall I take the obvious ones? The US backed invasion of Iran? Resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Liquidation of the Kurds?

A worthwhile read:

Did Saddam Die For Our Sins? - International Justice - Global Policy Forum

The cheek!! Am I your research assistant now??

Dreadnought

*Would we kill in the name of religion? Because you are not Sunni or Shiite or because maybe you are not an Arab from that region. Would we assinate the leaders with explosions etc. No. Would we be vigil? Absolutely.

*Oh but there was justification. Killing thousands, Deny nuclear specialist to weapons sites in denial of U.N. sanctions and threaten with WMD's etc. There most certainly was reason for it.

*Your self appointed "world cop".
A brief history lesson for you. When the U.S.,Britian, Russia and the other major powers emerged from WWII they did so with alot of responsibility to put things back together after many nations saw fit to stand by and watch Hitler run across Europe and the Japanese across the Pacific and destroy cultures,people,governments,institutions etc without a care.
We did not have to go to War against Germany because we were not attacked by them but the extermination of the Jewish descent demanded the world do something and Britan needed our help and France needed theirs. We needed Austrailia,Canada and every other major force to help us help them.

It is only due to economics, industry and other reasonings that the U.S. became the power that it has,.Because we are a system of laws and rights much like other countries and Allies but immigration to this country has brought us the best the world has to offer and still does to this day. We have immigrant from virtually every country in the world and if you ask most will tell you they are American. And we treat them as such.

As far as destruction goes if they would present themselves on a battlefield like men do and not hide behind women,children,hospitals,mosques etc then it could have all been over quickly. Unfortunately it is not that way and countries allow Preachers (Imams or the like) to preach hatred towards one another not religion which is exactly what they are supposed to be teaching. Tolerance,Acceptance,Love Forgiveness etc. They hide and fight over religion and nothing else. What happens at the end of all days and we find out that we were all wrong about our religions? Did millions have to die for it? No they didnt but it seems they only way they know how to live.(Not all mind you).

I could tell you right off that if I was one of those soldiers who found him your dam right I would have it in my heart to kill him then and now. My reasoning, I gave up my family,wife,children,home,job,school,friends, social life, (shower,bed,real food and comfort ) and everything that makes my life worth living that I have worked for in order to travel thousands of miles from home to get shot at,bombed, knifed,hated and cursed and watched my friends be murdered in order to help free a culture of people from a murderous regime. One that we are still finding bodies from and will for the next 10 years no doubt and you say so they could parade him around?

IMO I would say those gentlemen (perhaps ladies as well no offense) showed more restraint then anyone I have ever seen in my life and considering all of those things that were given up in order to help these people that sends a silent message of not only respect,dignity and honor but also how we treat people and to what laws our armed forces are held to. Go find that with your religious warring factions that will cut your throat in the street wether you are guilty of a real crime or not. I bet you come up empty in all cases.

Let me share this with you. We in the U.S. dont parade criminals around nor ballistic missles, burn other countries flags or anything of the sort in a state function nor most others to suite our political needs. We dont need to advertise we are a power. If power needs to be projected it will come from the President and no one else not some idiot screaming rhetoric and threatening another nation with total destruction.

We are a country of laws not grandstanding and hot tempers and intolerance.

The Kurds:
I think you will find if you read that U.S. forces since 1992 have protected the Kurds as well we have had our problems to date. Nothing is perfect.

Research assistant:

No you are not my research assistant but I as well am not going to do your homework for you. You made the point so you can do your homework as well.

Parihaka

Which would be why the irhabi blow up women and children in marketplaces, right?