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Thread: The illusion of the IDf dependence on America.

  1. #31
    WAB BOUNCER Senior Contributor Stan187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Israeli military personnel often come over to the West on exchange. We don't send battalions or companies over to their facilities.
    Sir, I've heard otherwise, and indeed I've read otherwise as well.

    U.S. employs Israeli tactics in Iraq - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com

    Israel admits training elite US forces - World - Times Online


    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    As far as Jenin is concerned, I argue that Grozny had a bigger impact on our thinking
    That, in and of itself, is a whole other discussion topic in the making. One which I'd look forward to, mind you.
    Last edited by Stan187; 04 Feb 08, at 01:44.
    In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
    The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

  2. #32
    Officer of Engineers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan187 View Post
    Same old, same old. Exchange means that they come under our command. And do note I stated companies and battalions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan187 View Post
    That, in and of itself, is a whole other discussion topic in the making. One which I'd look forward to, mind you.
    I think there are a few threads somewhere. I have to look them up.

  3. #33
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    Yeah its cool let's support all of the dictators. Hooray, what a foreign policy! Troung for President
    Nothing about Syria makes it more odorous then other regimes our government cuddles up to today. Won't make the case of crabs America's foreign policy suffers from any worse.

    And where is the guy who started this wonderful thread.
    Last edited by troung; 04 Feb 08, at 02:19.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  4. #34
    WAB BOUNCER Senior Contributor Stan187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    Nothing about Syria makes it more odorous then other regimes our government cuddles up to today. Won't make the case of crabs America's foreign policy suffers from any worse.

    And where is the guy who started this wonderful thread.
    Ducking for cover or educating himself, I hope.
    In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
    The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

  5. #35
    WAB BOUNCER Senior Contributor Stan187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Same old, same old. Exchange means that they come under our command. And do note I stated companies and battalions.



    I think there are a few threads somewhere. I have to look them up.
    Well, Sir, in that second article it says that they train in Israel. It didn't really mention the size of force being trained, so cannot say one way or the other. I hear that US troops are supposed to train pretty soon at the newly built Israeli urban warfare center, however there is nothing officially confirmed about that so far, nor about the size of the detachment that will train there.

    Interesting read on the topic, from the Marines themselves:

    Marines to train at new Israeli combat center - Marine Corps News, news from Iraq, photos from the war, late breaking reports - Marine Corps Times
    In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
    The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

  6. #36
    Officer of Engineers
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    Company level Ranger and Delta training are done in the US.

    And as for the new urban combat centre. I had to laugh at that one. The one reason why it is so expensive everywhere else is because we have to clean up the mess. Do you know the paper work I had to do if more than a gallon of gasoline was spilled?

  7. #37
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    That is worth billions each year and the alienation of the entire Muslim world?

    As I've mentioned a few times previously, support for Israel is not the only reason we're not liked in the Muslim world. And either way, I could care less what they think, lest we start asking them every time we wish to make a policy decision. We're not France ok, and thank goodness for that.
    Our support for Israel certainly plays a large role in why the average Muslim dislikes us. Shouldn't we receive something tangible for billions of dollars a year in foreign aid?


    Egypt receives $1.3 billion in military aid and something like $0.8 billion in economic aid. That's over $2 billion, not that far behind. As far the Camp David Accords, the US pushed for those more so than Israel did, so it is more our fault that we're such a cash cow, we did not have to push through and agree to all of this.
    Because our government realized that as long as the Israeli's were going to be fighting the Arabs every few years we were going to keep losing diplomatically to the Soviets.

    Are you going to present something that would prove your point that they wouldn't be so anti-US? Or is your word divine?
    Are you saying that our support for Israel isn't the largest reason for the animosity that the US has experienced over the past 50 years?

    Look, we support Israel, the USSR supported Syria and Egypt. Us vs them. We took Israel's side, so naturally we were against the Muslims. It is that simple for most Muslims, because being against Israel is something they can all get behind. Why did we have such a hard time with Muslim nations over the past 50 years (Iran included... the Shah may have liked us, but the people blamed the US for a whole host of problems, and our support for Israel just made it easier to be the scapegoat)? Isn't capitalism a better model for them than atheistic materialism? Yet the Soviets, with less to offer, continually got the better of us diplomatically.

    And once again, when has Israel been truly active in supporting American interests in the Middle East?

  8. #38
    WAB BOUNCER Senior Contributor Stan187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Company level Ranger and Delta training are done in the US.

    And as for the new urban combat centre. I had to laugh at that one. The one reason why it is so expensive everywhere else is because we have to clean up the mess. Do you know the paper work I had to do if more than a gallon of gasoline was spilled?
    Judging from what you've said so far, quite extensive?
    In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
    The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

  9. #39
    WAB BOUNCER Senior Contributor Stan187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwarmonger View Post

    Because our government realized that as long as the Israeli's were going to be fighting the Arabs every few years we were going to keep losing diplomatically to the Soviets.



    Are you saying that our support for Israel isn't the largest reason for the animosity that the US has experienced over the past 50 years?

    Look, we support Israel, the USSR supported Syria and Egypt. Us vs them. We took Israel's side, so naturally we were against the Muslims. It is that simple for most Muslims, because being against Israel is something they can all get behind. Why did we have such a hard time with Muslim nations over the past 50 years (Iran included... the Shah may have liked us, but the people blamed the US for a whole host of problems, and our support for Israel just made it easier to be the scapegoat)? Isn't capitalism a better model for them than atheistic materialism? Yet the Soviets, with less to offer, continually got the better of us diplomatically.

    And once again, when has Israel been truly active in supporting American interests in the Middle East?
    The Egyptians wanted nothing more to do with the Soviets, and they wanted some real economic development.

    So you're discounting our stationing troops in Saudi Arabia? And our presence in Iraq? And our so-called cultural imperialism?

    How convenient...
    In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
    The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

  10. #40
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan187 View Post
    Sir, I've heard otherwise, and indeed I've read otherwise as well.


    Israel admits training elite US forces - World - Times Online

    A senior Israeli military expert confirmed that elite American troops were regularly trained in Israel.

    Tal Tovy, an expert in guerrilla warfare who teaches at Israelís military staff college, said that US Marines and Army Rangers frequently visited the country on exercise and there was close co-operation on tactics.

    He was speaking after The Jerusalem Post reported that some American soldiers serving in Iraq have been trained at the counter-terrorism school in the Adam military base, near Modiíin, outside Jerusalem.
    I was a Marine that has been to Israel for exercises during the 80's, 90's and last time for me 2001. I will tell you that we go there, use the ranges and training areas but there is NO Cross training, or Co operation on tactics.

    And a point is made to ensure that nothing we do could be seen as cooperation. Not good in the eyes of our other allies in the region.

  11. #41
    Staff Emeritus Lunatock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK_4 View Post
    Hello, im new to the forum.
    I want to put on a subject about something that i have noticed lately, which is the illusion of many people (many of them Americans) about the dependence of the Israeli army on the USA, mentions weapons supplying and aid money.
    I don't know how many of them really know the IDF and about its equipment...
    The israeli army produce its own weapons so as many types of missiles, small arms(assault rifles), combat aircrafts like the 'kfir', 'Nesher' and the 'Lavi' that on its days was better than the F16, (the Chinese J10 based on the lavi) and mainly the high quality Merkava tank. the other equipment that is not israeli made had purchased and improved like the F16I and choppers.
    not mentioned that the israeli intelligences are good enough by their own (mossad etc...)
    about the aid money... i think that if USA prevents israel make its own money(weapons trade) like the Phalcon deal with the chinese that stopped, they should pay instead.

    well, so what do you think? do you think that the Israeli army is highly dependent on USA.
    I'm thinking I mostly hear about all the aid that Israel gets from America, as wacky islamist propaganda. That and it's probaby said to make themselves feel better about the inabilty to "drive the Jews ito the sea".

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan187 View Post
    So you're discounting our stationing troops in Saudi Arabia? And our presence in Iraq? And our so-called cultural imperialism?

    How convenient...
    Not at all... look at our presence in Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Iraq was forced to look to us because their war went bad with Iran. In other words they could choose to accept our assistance or they could lose the war. Now we are there because we fought our way in.

    The Saudi Government liked us because they sold most of their oil to us and our allies... however the people didn't share that. I wonder why? The people didn't share that to the extent that for Enduring Freedom we weren't allowed to attack from Saudi Arabia.

    As for cultural imperialism, that plays a part, but a small part. You can't mobilize people to detonate themselves for Coke and Madonna... the United States is synonymous with Israel in the eyes of many Muslims. Otherwise the Islamic world would be just as hostile to Europe... and they aren't.

  13. #43
    WAB BOUNCER Senior Contributor Stan187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    I was a Marine that has been to Israel for exercises during the 80's, 90's and last time for me 2001. I will tell you that we go there, use the ranges and training areas but there is NO Cross training, or Co operation on tactics.

    And a point is made to ensure that nothing we do could be seen as cooperation. Not good in the eyes of our other allies in the region.

    Interesting, I wonder if that is in the process of changing.
    In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
    The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

  14. #44
    WAB BOUNCER Senior Contributor Stan187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwarmonger View Post
    Not at all... look at our presence in Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Iraq was forced to look to us because their war went bad with Iran. In other words they could choose to accept our assistance or they could lose the war. Now we are there because we fought our way in.

    The Saudi Government liked us because they sold most of their oil to us and our allies... however the people didn't share that. I wonder why? The people didn't share that to the extent that for Enduring Freedom we weren't allowed to attack from Saudi Arabia.

    As for cultural imperialism, that plays a part, but a small part. You can't mobilize people to detonate themselves for Coke and Madonna... the United States is synonymous with Israel in the eyes of many Muslims. Otherwise the Islamic world would be just as hostile to Europe... and they aren't.
    People really start flipping out when their children start singing Eminem and Britney Spears, even more so when they imitate Britney's dance moves and clothing styles. Detonate themselves over Coke? Sure not. But detonate themselves over what they see as an invading culture supplanting their cultural values and encouraging in the moral decay of their young? Don't underestimate it for even an instant.
    In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
    The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan187 View Post
    People really start flipping out when their children start singing Eminem and Britney Spears, even more so when they imitate Britney's dance moves and clothing styles. Detonate themselves over Coke? Sure not. But detonate themselves over what they see as an invading culture supplanting their cultural values and encouraging in the moral decay of their young? Don't underestimate it for even an instant.
    And Europe? Their culture has had a very similar influence on much of the Middle East (in addition to colonialism), and they haven't attracted the hostility that we have. What is the difference?

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