Officer of Engineers

I remember when you 1st came onto this board and a great believer in the UN. Wondered what happened.

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Chimo

Parihaka

I met you Colonel

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In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz

Ray

I also wonder!

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"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Ray

Liberal, conservative, left wing, right wing has different connotations in different countries.

Therefore, the US liberal is actually an ultra conservative in other countries and the rightist is actually too much out of the world and appears to many as being a fascist if not neo Nazi.

Therefore, there is this confusion as to who is who and what is what!

In India, I would be termed as a rightist. But on this board, I would possibly taken to be a leftist at best if one went by the US calibration of political hues.

This is food for thought and to many, a truism.

Parihaka

And I met you sir


You want me to talk about the UN?
A magnificent talk fest and worth it's money for that alone. An excellent forum to do business informally.
But it should never be in a position to control armed forces.
It should never be in the position to impose legislature on any country.
It should never be in charge of any large sums of money.

but I will repeat this, which IIRC I said on my first week on this board: I have nothing but respect for those who have worn the blue beret.

Parihaka

If you'd been talking to the American liberals I've been talking to recently sir, you'd see that they are far more nazi-like, or should I say national-socialist, than the conservatives.
Not I hasten to add that I'm comparing such to the liberals who post here, more the moveon.org type.

Ray

Ah Parihaka,

You always have somethings up your sleeve.

Not to Parihaka.

The Mujhaideens (including the Arabs) were financed and trained by the ISI. They were also funded by the CIA and the British and some were even trained (please read Chapter 5 of the "The Unholy Wars" and other books). The CIA supplied the weapons also as did the Israelis and Chinese!

The infamous Pakistani bank BCCI was the conduit to the slush funds from western agencies.

The Mujahideens converted to the AQ and the Taliban (mere semantics though).

And now we have an interesting armed merry go round on our hands!

Ray

OK.

But some countries can, right?

Parihaka

Yes. Any country can when it can demonstrate that it has both the will, the power and the international connections for it to triumph in a war.
Most important of these are the international connections, which is the main use of the UN, and Bush's greatest blunder.
He didn't need Powell to convince in open council, just needed back room consent.
Compare Iraq with Israel's attack on Hezbollah. While Israel messed it up, diplomatically it had and used an open checkbook. "Take your time" everyone said, "no hurry......"
And afterward the UN was falling over itself to clean up after them, again compare with Iraq.

Parihaka

The Pashtun have always been open to the highest bidder. The latest of course being the Saud.

Ray

Parihaka the winner.

No contest!

Ray

As I look at it, Iraq has ruined the US credibility as a leader of the world. And we are slowly veering to the Cold War days, even if the divide is not so pronounced.

China and Russia are making deep inroads into the global supremacy of the US and whereas it should have made no difference now that Russia is no longer what it was, the Iraq war has given rise amongst many that the US can do irrational (in the international sense) things that threatens the sovereign right of a nation to decide what is best for her. This gives rise to insecurity and hence nations scamper to find a counterweight resulting in a dent of US hegemony over the world.

The Israel issue is a different kettle of fish. While many nations may not approve of the Israeli highhandedness, the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers cannot be condoned and the action taken was justified. The Palestinian chaos and Hamas highhandedness and brutality in the lines of the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists is another reason why Israel is no longer taken to be the odd man out.

Further, all western powers and even Russia and China were fed up with the pigheadness of the Iranian PM. And so there was no opposition to Israel taking a shot at Hezbollah, the surrogate of Iran.

In defence of George Bush, I will say that he surely would have tried the back room negotiation and when that failed he produced his 'evidence' through Powell.

Officer of Engineers

Sir,

No, they did not. They started fighting amongst themselves. I remind you, Sir, that the Northern Alliance were also Mujahadeen.

Ray

Colonel,

Mujaheedin is a generic term. It encompassed many a faction.

There were 7 major groups.

In so far as the sectarian divide eight Shi'ite parties formed a Coalition at Qom and came under banner of Hizb e Wahadat (Unity Party) in the Hazarajat regionof Afghnaistan. They stayed aloof from the Sunni factions.

The Sunni Mujaheedins came into existence in 1978 after the Communist coup in Kabul. The Old Moslem Youth movement split into three parts. The first one, Hizb i Islami, was led by Hekmatyar and his followers like him were uprooted ethnic Pashtuns of the Ghilzai tribal confederation.

The second splinter group was also called Hizb i Islami. This was headed by Mawlawi Younis Khalis, a cleric. His followers were from tribal eastern areas.

The third broad group out of the Moslem Youth Movement was the Jamaait i Islami was led by Professor Burhaniddin Rabbani of the Afghan State Faculty of Islam,ethnically a Tajik and the only Persian speaking amongst the Sunnis. He was a cultured person who spoke six languages! He was not anti West or anti US.

There was a Fourth Party which was Wahhabi and called Ittihad and was financed by Saudi Arabia, It was led by an Afghan intellectual, Professor Abdul Rasul Sayyaf. (700 of this group moved later after the Afghan War to Philippines to operate as the Aby Sayyaf group).

The other three group were 'moderates' working under the umbrella of Harkat e Enqela. The Leaders were Maoulavi Nabi, Pir Giliani and Hazrat Mujaddadi.

These Sunni factions members, after the Afghan War, did not vanish. The organisations transmogrified into what was known as the AQ and then the Taliban. Obviously, fresh recruits from Pakistan joined in and the organisations underwent changes.

The Northern Alliance was divorced technically from the aspirations of the Sunni factions.

Notwithstanding, it maybe recalled that there is a distinct divide between the majority Sunni Pashtun who are from the East and South and the minority Shia Hazara and Tajik, who are the North and NE.

Ray

The above post is from what I remember.

Here is something from the web.